https://www.thinkwiki.org/w/api.php?action=feedcontributions&feedformat=atom&user=212.34.172.148ThinkWiki - User contributions [en]2026-06-14T04:28:57ZUser contributionsMediaWiki 1.31.12https://www.thinkwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Thermal_Sensors&diff=13152Talk:Thermal Sensors2005-12-12T15:38:13Z<p>212.34.172.148: /* Southbridge sensor 0xC1 */</p>
<hr />
<div>== Secret sensor and the cause of fan always on ==<br />
<br />
On my {{T43}}, ecdump offsets 0xC0-0xC2 seem to include 3 more temperature sensors that are not seen in {{path|/proc/acpi/ibm/thermal}}:<br />
# cat /proc/acpi/ibm/thermal; <br />
temperatures: 44 41 33 42 33 -128 30 -128<br />
# perl -ne 'm/^EC 0xc0: .(..) .(..) .(..) / or next; print hex($1)." ".hex($2)." ".hex($3)."\n"' < /proc/acpi/ibm/ecdump<br />
40 48 43<br />
<br />
Note the "48" entry (EC offset 0xC1). Something's pretty hot even at full full speed (level 7, 4700RPM). This sensor increases very quickly when the system starts (in fact, faster than anything else when the CPU is undervolted and [[fglrx]] is in maximum powersaving).<br />
<br />
Now, note this: the fan kicks up from low speed to medium speed whenever this sensor reaches 46 degrees, even if no other sensor changes; and this seems to usually be the first trigger encountered. Moreover, this sensor hovers around 47-48 degrees even on an idle machine. Taken together, '''this fully explains the "fan always on" behavior: a previously-unnoticed sensor that's always hot.'''<br />
<br />
Any idea what this sensor is? It seems correlated with WiFi: there's a 2deg difference when I toggle {{path|/sys/bus/pci/drivers/ipw2200/*/rf_kill}} (without ever being associated so this shouldn't affect anything else), and heavy WiFi data transfer increases temperature by several more degrees. This suggests the sensor is located in or close to the mini-PCI slot (i.e., under the touchpad). That region is indeed often hot to the touch. But why would the mini-PCI slot get so hot? Could it be the southbridge, which sits under the mini-PCI slot with no heatsink and poor ventilation? Can anyone correlate this sensor other specific activity, or with blocking of specific ventilation holes, or with cooling of specific components? If it's the mini-PCI slot? The operating temperature of the Intel 2200BG is [ftp://download.intel.com/network/connectivity/resources/doc_library/tech_brief/2200bg_prodbrief.pdf 0-80 deg].<br />
<br />
Caveat: this is my experience with a {{T43}} after [[Pentium M undervolting and underclocking|undervolting]] the CPU and activating [[How to make use of Graphics Chips Power Management features|maximal GPU powersaving using fglrx]]. It could be that for other people, other components are the first to trigger. But either way, those are 3 temperature sensors we didn't know of and they're used by the Embedded Controller's algorithm.<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 16:20, 20 Nov 2005 (CET)<br />
----<br />
<br />
At the moment I am experimenting with controlling the fan on Windows XP with a self written tool on a {{T43}} (Model 2668 97G). Having found the information about the secret sensors here I built these into the program and it seems that after starting my cooled (placed outside) {{T43}} the 0xC1 sensor indeed rises fastest but also cools down quite quicky especially if also the CPU is cool. I have seen it hotter than the CPU but not much cooler, so probably it is a small chip connected to the colling element of the CPU.<br />
<br />
The values at 0xC0 and 0xC2 also seem to show temperature values here, while 0xC4 is always at 128.<br />
<br />
First experiments indicate that as long as all the temperature value are below 43°C the Thinkpad comes up with no fan and stays that way. (The fan control register at EC offset 0x2F set to 0x80, see the bottom of the [[patch for controlling fan speed]] page for a description of this register). If 43°C are reached on the 0xC1 sensor, the fan kicks in with low speed while 43°C on the CPU do not activate the fan. With regard to the CPU the kick-in seems to be around 48°C.<br />
<br />
Once the fan is on, it goes off again if all the seonsors drop to the area of 38°C or lower (the value may not be precise). But it hardly happens on it's own, for tests I placed it outside in cold weather.<br />
<br />
On [http://forum.thinkpads.com/ forums.thinkpad.com] is a ([http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=14580http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=14580 discussion]) from users who experimented with physically cooling the North- and Southbridge without success. In a different thread there a user claimed that he worked with a couple of Thinkpads and silenced them by turning off unused devices, WLAN being among them.<br />
<br />
With the XP WLAN device disabled the temperature on 0xC1 stays around 41°C here even if there is heavy activity on the CPU. It rises as soon as the WLAN device is enabled but hardly goes any hotter than 44°C. But I also could not make it go hot at all running on battery. And the heat reading there somehow more or less follows the value of the CPU.<br />
<br />
Bottom line on my {{T43}} (2668 97G): Fan kicks in for CPU around 48°C or 0xC1 at 43°C and then never goes off again unless you use external cooling. 0xC1 sensor could to be related to WLAN (I'm not really sure about it) and/or is probably placed near the CPU. It could also have something to do with running the machine no AC rather than battery.<br />
<br />
-- Shimdoax - 2005-11-27<br />
----<br />
<br />
Shimdoax, you said "''I have seen it hotter than the CPU but not much cooler, so probably it is a small chip connected to the colling element of the CPU''", but also "''the temperature on 0xC1 stays around 41°C here even if there is heavy activity on the CPU''". It follows that your CPU is never much hotter than 41°C, which I find unlikely... Anyway, on my T43, sensor 0cC1 is correlated with the CPU but very slightly; it is more correlated with the GPU, but not very much either.<br />
<br />
I suspect that sensor 0xC1 sits on the system board under the touchpad, since this is consistent with all of the following:<br />
* In idle with wireless off, sensor 0xC1 has roughly the same temperature as the GPU (which is adjacent on the system board, under the spacebar and TrackPoint buttons).<br />
* Correlation with the WLAN card activity (which is sandwiched between the system board and the touchpad).<br />
* Quick warm-up (the southbridge is also on the system board under the touchpad, and has no heat spreader).<br />
* Negligible effect of fan speed on 0xC1 temperature (the touchpad area is cramped and lacks decent ventilation, hence has negligible air flow).<br />
* When I place a 12cm-by-12cm pad of thick thermally isolating material (a folded fleece blanket...) under the touchpad, 0xC1 temperature consistently rises by 2-3 degrees (and cools back when I remove the pad); other sensors seem unaffected.<br />
<br />
If this is indeed the case, it's hard to see what can be done (other than using a fan control script with an increased threshold for this sensor). It looks like IBM/Lenovo counted on this area being passively cooled through the bottom of the case - see how the bottom of the laptop is designed to allow air flow under the front quarter? However, once the desk under the laptop has warmed up (or if air flow is blocked, as when the laptop is sitting on the top of a lap), things just cook up. The [http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=14580http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=14580 mods] which thermally connet the southbridge to the GPU cooling assembly might improve things a bit, but on my system sensor 0xC1 isn't much hotter than the GPU anyway. Maybe ventilation can be improved by letting in more air through the speaker grills on the front - does anyone know what things looks like, under the very front of the palmrest? This won't solve "fan always on" since it will help only when the fan is on, but it may let the fan run at a lower speed.<br />
<br />
BTW, Shimdoax, how are you monitoring/controlling the EC under Windows?<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 18:22, 27 Nov 2005 (CET)<br />
----<br />
<br />
Thinker,<br />
<br />
I currently don't know where to read the GPU temp from, so I can't say much about it (I'm running XP and have not found drivers or tools that would display the GPU).<br />
<br />
However, regarding my experiments: I had the machine on my desk earlier today (when I wrote the post) on AC with WLAN connection to the office network and "Max. Battery Life" Scheme. I had taken it from the trunk of the car (it's quite cold outside, around freezing). During the whole experiments the CPU hardly went higher than 46°C, most of the time it was around 39°C to 43°C. I wasn't very systematic in these tests, these were just first observations.<br />
<br />
However, I think I can confirm that the 43°C on the C1 triggers the fan on my machine here. 48°C to 50°C on the CPU also triggers the fan on. Then I put the laptop outside the window twice. Temperatures dropped quite quickly and around MAX(CPU, 0xC1) of 38°C the fan turned itself off.<br />
<br />
Further tests on the WLAN revealed mixed results about correlation. If the CPU goes up the C1 also goes up, even if WLAN is disabled. On the other hand I had cases where WLAN (big folder copy) made the C1 rise ahead of the CPU. The way I tested it, mostly the C1 triggered the fan before the CPU did. This at least explains why CPU undervolting/clocking doesn't help much.<br />
<br />
But I think you're right. Without custom scripts I guess it will be hard to keep the C1 below 43°C. This value may even be intentional by IBM. If it is really near the palmrest, higher values may cause burns (I once read about a guy who actually burnt his balls [no joke!] by working with a laptop which had a 42°C - 45°C battery temp. in his lap for an hour or two). So they may think that fan noise is preferrable to bad publicity.<br />
<br />
Hence I'm not counting on IBM. Instead I'm currently writing a custom fan control program for XP, that's how I read the EC there. I'll post a first version [http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=17715 here] later today. Maybe some folks from the hardware modding thread will help to locate the sensors with some cooling spray.<br />
<br />
-- Shimodax - 2005-11-27<br />
----<br />
<br />
Shimodax,<br />
<br />
Great to see work on a Windows solution, especially from Emtec! (Alas, I let my ZOC registration expire when I switched to Linux). Will you be releasing the source code? <br />
<br />
If the 0xC1 sensor is near the southbridge then it will be affected by CPU activity both because of related southbridge activity and by thermal conductance via the motherboard; but I've seen 0xC1 at 47deg and CPU at 59deg (after a long burn-in), so they can't be too close. About the palmrest, IBM actually brags about low palm rest temperature in some of their marketing publication. But ironically the hottest and worst-cooled area of the laptop (where I suspect 0xC1 sits) is in the bottom center right under the touchpad - which tends to coincide with certain anatomical regions... BTW, GPU temp is EC offset 0x7B; there a partial list inside my new fan control script at [[Talk:ACPI_fan_control_script]] (I'll move it to the article page soon).<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 23:20, 27 Nov 2005 (CET)<br />
----<br />
<br />
+LOL+ I wouldn't have expected that anybody would know me :-)<br />
<br />
Yes, I'll release source code soon. I took quite some pain in writing this tool without our proprietary classes and libs in order to be able to release the source (or at least maintain a basic Open Source version). I'll see if SourceForge accepts the project (applied on Saturday), otherwise I'll have find another place.<br />
<br />
Thanks for the info about the GPU ... <br />
<br />
Markus<br />
<br />
-- Shimodax - 23:42 (CET) - 2005-11-27<br />
----<br />
<br />
For the record: the new [http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?p=111974 "Shimodax fan control tool : sharing values"] topic at the thinkpads.com forums tracks some other users' experience with their sensor. So far the only new observation is that sensor 0x7A (3rd) is probably in the vicinity of the the CPU or northbridge.<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 12:53, 28 Nov 2005 (CET)<br />
----<br />
<br />
Just now I see the C2 higher than C1 and rest of the system for the first time. Only difference I can think of is the fact that the battery is loading. I hooked it on with 6% left about 30 minutes ago. Usage was mainly web broswing (firefox, maybe a webpage with animated gif ads). C2 triggered the fan at 50°C two times.<br />
<br />
CPU 42°C (0x78)<br />
APS 41°C (0x79)<br />
X7A 34°C (0x7A)<br />
GPU 44°C (0x7B)<br />
BAT 40°C (0x7C)<br />
BAT 31°C (0x7E)<br />
XC0 40°C (0xC0)<br />
XC1 46°C (0xC1)<br />
XC2 48°C (0xC2)<br />
<br />
-- Shimodax 00:17 CET - 2005-11-30<br />
----<br />
<br />
Upon further casual observation I would like to offer the theory that the C2 sensor is indeed related to battery loading and may be located rear/left (under the Esc/F1) on a T43. See: page 2 on [http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?p=111974 "Shimodax fan control tool : sharing values"]<br />
<br />
-- Shimodax 13:27 CET - 2005-12-01<br />
----<br />
<br />
I happen to have a photo of that area from the last time I opened my T43, and indeed it looks like there's some power circuitry there:<br />
<br />
[[Image:T43-2686-DGU-CDC.jpg|500px|T43 CDC]]<br />
<br />
Those two "150 A47L" are just above the ventilation grill. Any idea what they could be?<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 20:11, 1 Dec 2005 (CET)<br />
----<br />
<br />
Don't know ... they could look like power stabilizing transistors, but I have very little knowledge of electronic (especially of SMD circuits) so that's just wild guessing.<br />
<br />
Hoever, the system is currently loading battery again and I played with the fan. The C2 does react to the fan quite slowly and when I forced the fan off it rose no higher than 55°C. Also from touching the bottom of the laptop, I'd say the hottest part of that area is between the grill and the latch for the DRAM expansion (probably below the thing in the center of your photo).<br />
<br />
-- Shimodax 01:53 CET - 2005-12-02<br />
<br />
----<br />
<br />
Makes perfect sense. So 0xC2 sits under the CDC and monitors the power circuitry (not just battery charging, since it also heats up slightly above its environment without a battery). Then XC2->PWR, I guess. Two more to go: 0x7A and 0xC0 (both are nice and cool here).<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 03:35, 2 Dec 2005 (CET)<br />
----<br />
<br />
I'll then rename it in my tool with the next release. Btw, do you have any idea what the APS might be on other models?<br />
<br />
-- Shimodax 14:07 CET - 2005-12-03<br />
----<br />
<br />
It's easy to check if 0x79 is the HDAPS accelerometer or not: read the HDAPS temperature directly and compare. For getting the HDAPS temperature you can follow the Linux hdaps.c driver, or just reboot to Linux and look at {{path|/sys/bus/platform/drivers/hdaps/hdaps/temp1}} (and at {{path|/proc/acpi/ibm/thermal}} for the first 8 EC sensors). On my T43, the 0x79 always matches the HDAPS sensor (usually identical but sometimes 1 degree off, probably due to a different sampling time). BTW, my [[ACPI_fan_control_script#Variable_speed_control_scripts|ACPI fan control script]] monitors both, just in case.<br />
<br />
Speaking of which, the table at the top of that script reflects all knowledge gleaned from the forum.tinkpads.com discussion. Feel free to update it (maybe we should move it to a separate and more spacious page?).<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 15:03, 3 Dec 2005 (CET)<br />
----<br />
<br />
For another view of the 0xC2 area, including a peek under the CDC card, see IBM/Lenovo's [http://www-307.ibm.com/pc/support/site.wss/document.do?sitestyle=lenovo&lndocid=MIGR-51451 CDC removal movie]. There seems to be nothing very exciting visible on the upper side on the motherboard (but judging by the plastic buldge in the bottom of the case, there's probably some circuitry on the underside).<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 16:39, 3 Dec 2005 (CET)<br />
----<br />
I just had the idea that 0xC0 could be the Northbridge chip. See [http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?p=111974 "Shimodax fan control tool : sharing values"]<br />
<br />
-- Shimodax 23:15 CET - 2005-12-05<br />
----<br />
<br />
Yes, 0xC0 is very much correlated with CPU temperature. But if it's the northbrighe then it's surpsigingly cool, since northbridges usually run pretty hot, and the 815PM has a small surface area and no cooling assembly whatsoever, see here:<br />
<br />
[[Image:ThinkPad-T43-under-keyboard-left.jpg|500px|T43 systemboard]] (click to enlarge)<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 00:45, 5 Dec 2005 (CET)<br />
----<br />
Mmmh, I guess I'll remove the keyboard and play with some cooling spray. It seems that a good part of the inside area can be reached through the opening of the keyboard.<br />
<br />
-- Shimodax 23:15 CET - 2005-12-05<br />
<br />
-----<br />
Just in case - these [http://www-307.ibm.com/pc/support/site.wss/document.do?lndocid=MIGR-50233 instructions and movies] are pretty useful. It looks like the palmrest should be easy to remove too, but I didn't try that.<br />
<br />
Keep us posted :-)<br />
<br />
And please take plenty of photos! You never know what you'll want to look up later (as with those 0xC2 power chips above).<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 17:34, 6 Dec 2005 (CET)<br />
----<br />
Someone on a [http://thinkpad-forum.de/forum/viewtopic.php?p=29286#29286 German forum] reported that he saw pictures on an U.S. forum where someone said he located the 0xC1 with cooling spray. Seems indeed to be below the left of the touchpad on the mainboard (pictures on the forum article linked above)<br />
<br />
-- Shimodax 22:50 CET - 2005-12-06<br />
----<br />
Interesting. That's a T40, right? Similar layout but different cooling assembly. Anyway, the T40 didn't have HDAPS, but on the T43 the HDAPS accelerometer chip is just 1 or 2 centimeters down from the location of the chip marked here. And on the T43, sensor 0xC1 and direct HDAPS reads give very different results. So maybe they moved 0xC1 away on the T43? Or, maybe the temperatures read through by HDAPS driver actually come from a separate sensor located elsewhere (unlikely but possible).<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 01:05, 7 Dec 2005 (CET)<br />
----<br />
Yep, that was a T40. Well, I purchased a can of cooling spray today. First results without opening the machine indicate 0xC2 is near the grill below the Esc-F3 keys. The currently still unknown 0x7A cools down if I spray into the PCMCIA slot (also makes sense to place a sensor there, I'd say it is on the mainboard below the slots).<br />
<br />
Probably will open the case tonight or tomorrow. I guess for precise results I'll need to remove the bezel and the fan ... quite an adventure ;-). Will keep you posted of further results.<br />
<br />
-- Shimodax 2005-12-07<br />
----<br />
<br />
Speaking of the PCMCIA port - I noticed that under heavy CPU load with the fan on, if I insert a PC Card into the slot then the CPU and 0x79 (HDAPS) temperature quickly go up a couple of degrees. This happens even if the PC Card is turned off or not inserted all the way in (no electric contact). Probably blocked airflow.<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 20:08, 7 Dec 2005 (CET)<br />
----<br />
I opened the thing today and played around a bit. Here's my assesment of where the sensors are:<br />
[http://img363.imageshack.us/img363/545/pc080805custom22ef.jpg Image] (dunno how to upload an image here, feel free to add it to thinkwiki directly).<br />
<br />
C1 is most likely the Southbridge chip itself, APS and BUS are the small highlighted chips or very near them. PWR did not react much to the spray, but does react to spraying throught the grill on the bottom of the case, so it's probably on the underside.<br />
<br />
-- Shimodax 2005-12-08<br />
<br />
[[Image:T43-thermal-sensors.jpg|ThinkPad T43 thermal sensors|700px]] (click to enlarge)<br />
<br />
----<br />
<br />
Shimodax,<br />
<br />
Beautiful, beautiful work! Got everything back in working order, I hope, including those pesky screwcap stickers?<br />
<br />
This confirms our information/guesses about CPU,GPU,BAT,BAT2,PWR and Southbridge, and solves the mystery of 0x7A (PCMCIA) and 0xCA (Northbridge-RAM bus). A few notes:<br />
<br />
* 0x79 is a surprise - it is quite far from the HDAPS acceleromater chip (search for "accelerometer" [ftp://ftp.software.ibm.com/pc/pccbbs/mobiles_pdf/39t2393.pdf here]), even though it gives the same temperatures as when reading the accelerometer's IO ports. But this explains why 0x89 quickly gets hotter under load when the PCMCIA port is blocked.<br />
* The mapping is indeed different from the R52 one that people keep citing because of the ibm-acpi documentation - the 2nd and 3rd sensors are ''not'' HDD and Mini-PCI.<br />
* Some of the chips are a quite distant from the hot components they presumably monitor. Most significantly, when some usage causes the Northbridge to heat up rapidly, by the time sensor 0xC0 says 55 degrees the Northbridge core is probably above 60.<br />
<br />
Shimodoax, it would be great if you could upload more (unprocessed) photos, either to the Wiki (using the "Upload file" button on the left navigation bar) or by links. Deserves its own Wikipage, I think. It will save a lot of people the need to open their laptop too... For example, in regard to a discussion from yesterday further up the page - got a clear photo of the fan power connector, by any chance?<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 18:38, 8 Dec 2005 (CET)<br />
----<br />
<br />
See [[Thermal sensors]].<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 19:48, 8 Dec 2005 (CET)<br />
----<br />
Just for the record: I did not test the two BAT locations, these were taken from your previous description. Regarding the other locations, I'm quite sure about them but not 100% definite. I would not treat them as bullet proof fact until someone else confirms the experiment.<br />
<br />
The whole procedure went quite smoothly. I just found that there were three screws missing in my machine but luckily I had ordered a thinkpad screw kit on Ebay a few days ago. Also, on my model I did not need the stickers, all screws were without one. Just mone minor mishap happened when I stuck one of the #2 screws in the wrong hole (there is an empty hole that looks like a screw hole about 4mm from the intended location) and had a hard time getting the screw out.<br />
<br />
I still have no idea how to upload stuff here, maybe becaue I don't have an account here. I do have a couple more pictures, also larger ones, although they are not too great photography. I'll upload them to the thinkpad forum via imageshack and you can grab them and put them here. <br />
<br />
-- Shimodax -- 2005-12-08<br />
----<br />
Maybe those missing screws were the 3 optional Torx screws "protecting" the wireless card (lip service to FCC regulations). Yes, uploads require an account (registation is straightforward, and has some perks). BTW, and that extra hole fooled me too. :-)<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 20:45, 8 Dec 2005 (CET)<br />
----<br />
One of the missing screws was the one that secures the HD, the other were two #1 near the front. <br />
I just zipped and uploaded the other pictures to our server: [http://www.emtec.com/zzstuff/T43-2668.zip T43-2668.zip]. Feel free to upload or use them anywhere you want.<br />
<br />
-- Shimodax -- 2005-12-08<br />
<br />
== Southbridge sensor 0xC1 ==<br />
<br />
The southbridge on the T43 does not have a built-in thermal sensor, according to its specs (see [[Intel 82801FBM]]). So sensor 0xC1 may be adjacent or on the underside of the system board.<br />
--Thinker<br />
----<br />
<br />
That's possible. Spraying the Southbridge chip did yield the most direct temperature changes, but they were not as quick as I would have expected (I attributed that to the large size of the chip). So it may indeed be the underside or something near (there wasn't anything visible that looked like the BUS or APS sensors in my picture.)<br />
<br />
--Shimodax<br />
----<br />
<br />
Since the southbridge is the hottest thing around, and moreover has a large ceramic package, it gives the quickest heat exchange with the cooling spray (i.e., it "absorbs the cold" fastest). Thermal conductance through the PCB would then allow the sensor to be anywhere nearby. Similarly for some of the other locations, which to my (untrained) eye look more like power regulation components than sensors. So the actual sensors are probably on the underside (otherwise you'd spot them, and it also makes sense in the bottlenek is the user's lap rather than the chips), in the vicinity of the identified components.<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 17:33, 11 Dec 2005 (CET)<br />
----<br />
For what it is worth, the other ones (BUS,APS) did react very directly, even to very targeted and short bursts of cold (in one instance BUS went down to zero with one burst). Also, they look quite like the thing the user on the thinkpads forum had identified on the T40. With the southbridge I sprayed that specifically also (just covering the chip) but results were not nearly as direct as with the small chips. Reason could have been that the chip itself generated heat from the core at the same time but if the SB doesn't have it's own sensor, a themrmal sensor on the underside would fit the observation quite as well (or even better).<br />
<br />
--Shimodax</div>212.34.172.148https://www.thinkwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Thermal_Sensors&diff=13125Talk:Thermal Sensors2005-12-11T16:06:30Z<p>212.34.172.148: /* Southbridge sensor 0xC1 */</p>
<hr />
<div>== Secret sensor and the cause of fan always on ==<br />
<br />
On my {{T43}}, ecdump offsets 0xC0-0xC2 seem to include 3 more temperature sensors that are not seen in {{path|/proc/acpi/ibm/thermal}}:<br />
# cat /proc/acpi/ibm/thermal; <br />
temperatures: 44 41 33 42 33 -128 30 -128<br />
# perl -ne 'm/^EC 0xc0: .(..) .(..) .(..) / or next; print hex($1)." ".hex($2)." ".hex($3)."\n"' < /proc/acpi/ibm/ecdump<br />
40 48 43<br />
<br />
Note the "48" entry (EC offset 0xC1). Something's pretty hot even at full full speed (level 7, 4700RPM). This sensor increases very quickly when the system starts (in fact, faster than anything else when the CPU is undervolted and [[fglrx]] is in maximum powersaving).<br />
<br />
Now, note this: the fan kicks up from low speed to medium speed whenever this sensor reaches 46 degrees, even if no other sensor changes; and this seems to usually be the first trigger encountered. Moreover, this sensor hovers around 47-48 degrees even on an idle machine. Taken together, '''this fully explains the "fan always on" behavior: a previously-unnoticed sensor that's always hot.'''<br />
<br />
Any idea what this sensor is? It seems correlated with WiFi: there's a 2deg difference when I toggle {{path|/sys/bus/pci/drivers/ipw2200/*/rf_kill}} (without ever being associated so this shouldn't affect anything else), and heavy WiFi data transfer increases temperature by several more degrees. This suggests the sensor is located in or close to the mini-PCI slot (i.e., under the touchpad). That region is indeed often hot to the touch. But why would the mini-PCI slot get so hot? Could it be the southbridge, which sits under the mini-PCI slot with no heatsink and poor ventilation? Can anyone correlate this sensor other specific activity, or with blocking of specific ventilation holes, or with cooling of specific components? If it's the mini-PCI slot? The operating temperature of the Intel 2200BG is [ftp://download.intel.com/network/connectivity/resources/doc_library/tech_brief/2200bg_prodbrief.pdf 0-80 deg].<br />
<br />
Caveat: this is my experience with a {{T43}} after [[Pentium M undervolting and underclocking|undervolting]] the CPU and activating [[How to make use of Graphics Chips Power Management features|maximal GPU powersaving using fglrx]]. It could be that for other people, other components are the first to trigger. But either way, those are 3 temperature sensors we didn't know of and they're used by the Embedded Controller's algorithm.<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 16:20, 20 Nov 2005 (CET)<br />
----<br />
<br />
At the moment I am experimenting with controlling the fan on Windows XP with a self written tool on a {{T43}} (Model 2668 97G). Having found the information about the secret sensors here I built these into the program and it seems that after starting my cooled (placed outside) {{T43}} the 0xC1 sensor indeed rises fastest but also cools down quite quicky especially if also the CPU is cool. I have seen it hotter than the CPU but not much cooler, so probably it is a small chip connected to the colling element of the CPU.<br />
<br />
The values at 0xC0 and 0xC2 also seem to show temperature values here, while 0xC4 is always at 128.<br />
<br />
First experiments indicate that as long as all the temperature value are below 43°C the Thinkpad comes up with no fan and stays that way. (The fan control register at EC offset 0x2F set to 0x80, see the bottom of the [[patch for controlling fan speed]] page for a description of this register). If 43°C are reached on the 0xC1 sensor, the fan kicks in with low speed while 43°C on the CPU do not activate the fan. With regard to the CPU the kick-in seems to be around 48°C.<br />
<br />
Once the fan is on, it goes off again if all the seonsors drop to the area of 38°C or lower (the value may not be precise). But it hardly happens on it's own, for tests I placed it outside in cold weather.<br />
<br />
On [http://forum.thinkpads.com/ forums.thinkpad.com] is a ([http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=14580http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=14580 discussion]) from users who experimented with physically cooling the North- and Southbridge without success. In a different thread there a user claimed that he worked with a couple of Thinkpads and silenced them by turning off unused devices, WLAN being among them.<br />
<br />
With the XP WLAN device disabled the temperature on 0xC1 stays around 41°C here even if there is heavy activity on the CPU. It rises as soon as the WLAN device is enabled but hardly goes any hotter than 44°C. But I also could not make it go hot at all running on battery. And the heat reading there somehow more or less follows the value of the CPU.<br />
<br />
Bottom line on my {{T43}} (2668 97G): Fan kicks in for CPU around 48°C or 0xC1 at 43°C and then never goes off again unless you use external cooling. 0xC1 sensor could to be related to WLAN (I'm not really sure about it) and/or is probably placed near the CPU. It could also have something to do with running the machine no AC rather than battery.<br />
<br />
-- Shimdoax - 2005-11-27<br />
----<br />
<br />
Shimdoax, you said "''I have seen it hotter than the CPU but not much cooler, so probably it is a small chip connected to the colling element of the CPU''", but also "''the temperature on 0xC1 stays around 41°C here even if there is heavy activity on the CPU''". It follows that your CPU is never much hotter than 41°C, which I find unlikely... Anyway, on my T43, sensor 0cC1 is correlated with the CPU but very slightly; it is more correlated with the GPU, but not very much either.<br />
<br />
I suspect that sensor 0xC1 sits on the system board under the touchpad, since this is consistent with all of the following:<br />
* In idle with wireless off, sensor 0xC1 has roughly the same temperature as the GPU (which is adjacent on the system board, under the spacebar and TrackPoint buttons).<br />
* Correlation with the WLAN card activity (which is sandwiched between the system board and the touchpad).<br />
* Quick warm-up (the southbridge is also on the system board under the touchpad, and has no heat spreader).<br />
* Negligible effect of fan speed on 0xC1 temperature (the touchpad area is cramped and lacks decent ventilation, hence has negligible air flow).<br />
* When I place a 12cm-by-12cm pad of thick thermally isolating material (a folded fleece blanket...) under the touchpad, 0xC1 temperature consistently rises by 2-3 degrees (and cools back when I remove the pad); other sensors seem unaffected.<br />
<br />
If this is indeed the case, it's hard to see what can be done (other than using a fan control script with an increased threshold for this sensor). It looks like IBM/Lenovo counted on this area being passively cooled through the bottom of the case - see how the bottom of the laptop is designed to allow air flow under the front quarter? However, once the desk under the laptop has warmed up (or if air flow is blocked, as when the laptop is sitting on the top of a lap), things just cook up. The [http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=14580http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=14580 mods] which thermally connet the southbridge to the GPU cooling assembly might improve things a bit, but on my system sensor 0xC1 isn't much hotter than the GPU anyway. Maybe ventilation can be improved by letting in more air through the speaker grills on the front - does anyone know what things looks like, under the very front of the palmrest? This won't solve "fan always on" since it will help only when the fan is on, but it may let the fan run at a lower speed.<br />
<br />
BTW, Shimdoax, how are you monitoring/controlling the EC under Windows?<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 18:22, 27 Nov 2005 (CET)<br />
----<br />
<br />
Thinker,<br />
<br />
I currently don't know where to read the GPU temp from, so I can't say much about it (I'm running XP and have not found drivers or tools that would display the GPU).<br />
<br />
However, regarding my experiments: I had the machine on my desk earlier today (when I wrote the post) on AC with WLAN connection to the office network and "Max. Battery Life" Scheme. I had taken it from the trunk of the car (it's quite cold outside, around freezing). During the whole experiments the CPU hardly went higher than 46°C, most of the time it was around 39°C to 43°C. I wasn't very systematic in these tests, these were just first observations.<br />
<br />
However, I think I can confirm that the 43°C on the C1 triggers the fan on my machine here. 48°C to 50°C on the CPU also triggers the fan on. Then I put the laptop outside the window twice. Temperatures dropped quite quickly and around MAX(CPU, 0xC1) of 38°C the fan turned itself off.<br />
<br />
Further tests on the WLAN revealed mixed results about correlation. If the CPU goes up the C1 also goes up, even if WLAN is disabled. On the other hand I had cases where WLAN (big folder copy) made the C1 rise ahead of the CPU. The way I tested it, mostly the C1 triggered the fan before the CPU did. This at least explains why CPU undervolting/clocking doesn't help much.<br />
<br />
But I think you're right. Without custom scripts I guess it will be hard to keep the C1 below 43°C. This value may even be intentional by IBM. If it is really near the palmrest, higher values may cause burns (I once read about a guy who actually burnt his balls [no joke!] by working with a laptop which had a 42°C - 45°C battery temp. in his lap for an hour or two). So they may think that fan noise is preferrable to bad publicity.<br />
<br />
Hence I'm not counting on IBM. Instead I'm currently writing a custom fan control program for XP, that's how I read the EC there. I'll post a first version [http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=17715 here] later today. Maybe some folks from the hardware modding thread will help to locate the sensors with some cooling spray.<br />
<br />
-- Shimodax - 2005-11-27<br />
----<br />
<br />
Shimodax,<br />
<br />
Great to see work on a Windows solution, especially from Emtec! (Alas, I let my ZOC registration expire when I switched to Linux). Will you be releasing the source code? <br />
<br />
If the 0xC1 sensor is near the southbridge then it will be affected by CPU activity both because of related southbridge activity and by thermal conductance via the motherboard; but I've seen 0xC1 at 47deg and CPU at 59deg (after a long burn-in), so they can't be too close. About the palmrest, IBM actually brags about low palm rest temperature in some of their marketing publication. But ironically the hottest and worst-cooled area of the laptop (where I suspect 0xC1 sits) is in the bottom center right under the touchpad - which tends to coincide with certain anatomical regions... BTW, GPU temp is EC offset 0x7B; there a partial list inside my new fan control script at [[Talk:ACPI_fan_control_script]] (I'll move it to the article page soon).<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 23:20, 27 Nov 2005 (CET)<br />
----<br />
<br />
+LOL+ I wouldn't have expected that anybody would know me :-)<br />
<br />
Yes, I'll release source code soon. I took quite some pain in writing this tool without our proprietary classes and libs in order to be able to release the source (or at least maintain a basic Open Source version). I'll see if SourceForge accepts the project (applied on Saturday), otherwise I'll have find another place.<br />
<br />
Thanks for the info about the GPU ... <br />
<br />
Markus<br />
<br />
-- Shimodax - 23:42 (CET) - 2005-11-27<br />
----<br />
<br />
For the record: the new [http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?p=111974 "Shimodax fan control tool : sharing values"] topic at the thinkpads.com forums tracks some other users' experience with their sensor. So far the only new observation is that sensor 0x7A (3rd) is probably in the vicinity of the the CPU or northbridge.<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 12:53, 28 Nov 2005 (CET)<br />
----<br />
<br />
Just now I see the C2 higher than C1 and rest of the system for the first time. Only difference I can think of is the fact that the battery is loading. I hooked it on with 6% left about 30 minutes ago. Usage was mainly web broswing (firefox, maybe a webpage with animated gif ads). C2 triggered the fan at 50°C two times.<br />
<br />
CPU 42°C (0x78)<br />
APS 41°C (0x79)<br />
X7A 34°C (0x7A)<br />
GPU 44°C (0x7B)<br />
BAT 40°C (0x7C)<br />
BAT 31°C (0x7E)<br />
XC0 40°C (0xC0)<br />
XC1 46°C (0xC1)<br />
XC2 48°C (0xC2)<br />
<br />
-- Shimodax 00:17 CET - 2005-11-30<br />
----<br />
<br />
Upon further casual observation I would like to offer the theory that the C2 sensor is indeed related to battery loading and may be located rear/left (under the Esc/F1) on a T43. See: page 2 on [http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?p=111974 "Shimodax fan control tool : sharing values"]<br />
<br />
-- Shimodax 13:27 CET - 2005-12-01<br />
----<br />
<br />
I happen to have a photo of that area from the last time I opened my T43, and indeed it looks like there's some power circuitry there:<br />
<br />
[[Image:T43-2686-DGU-CDC.jpg|500px|T43 CDC]]<br />
<br />
Those two "150 A47L" are just above the ventilation grill. Any idea what they could be?<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 20:11, 1 Dec 2005 (CET)<br />
----<br />
<br />
Don't know ... they could look like power stabilizing transistors, but I have very little knowledge of electronic (especially of SMD circuits) so that's just wild guessing.<br />
<br />
Hoever, the system is currently loading battery again and I played with the fan. The C2 does react to the fan quite slowly and when I forced the fan off it rose no higher than 55°C. Also from touching the bottom of the laptop, I'd say the hottest part of that area is between the grill and the latch for the DRAM expansion (probably below the thing in the center of your photo).<br />
<br />
-- Shimodax 01:53 CET - 2005-12-02<br />
<br />
----<br />
<br />
Makes perfect sense. So 0xC2 sits under the CDC and monitors the power circuitry (not just battery charging, since it also heats up slightly above its environment without a battery). Then XC2->PWR, I guess. Two more to go: 0x7A and 0xC0 (both are nice and cool here).<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 03:35, 2 Dec 2005 (CET)<br />
----<br />
<br />
I'll then rename it in my tool with the next release. Btw, do you have any idea what the APS might be on other models?<br />
<br />
-- Shimodax 14:07 CET - 2005-12-03<br />
----<br />
<br />
It's easy to check if 0x79 is the HDAPS accelerometer or not: read the HDAPS temperature directly and compare. For getting the HDAPS temperature you can follow the Linux hdaps.c driver, or just reboot to Linux and look at {{path|/sys/bus/platform/drivers/hdaps/hdaps/temp1}} (and at {{path|/proc/acpi/ibm/thermal}} for the first 8 EC sensors). On my T43, the 0x79 always matches the HDAPS sensor (usually identical but sometimes 1 degree off, probably due to a different sampling time). BTW, my [[ACPI_fan_control_script#Variable_speed_control_scripts|ACPI fan control script]] monitors both, just in case.<br />
<br />
Speaking of which, the table at the top of that script reflects all knowledge gleaned from the forum.tinkpads.com discussion. Feel free to update it (maybe we should move it to a separate and more spacious page?).<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 15:03, 3 Dec 2005 (CET)<br />
----<br />
<br />
For another view of the 0xC2 area, including a peek under the CDC card, see IBM/Lenovo's [http://www-307.ibm.com/pc/support/site.wss/document.do?sitestyle=lenovo&lndocid=MIGR-51451 CDC removal movie]. There seems to be nothing very exciting visible on the upper side on the motherboard (but judging by the plastic buldge in the bottom of the case, there's probably some circuitry on the underside).<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 16:39, 3 Dec 2005 (CET)<br />
----<br />
I just had the idea that 0xC0 could be the Northbridge chip. See [http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?p=111974 "Shimodax fan control tool : sharing values"]<br />
<br />
-- Shimodax 23:15 CET - 2005-12-05<br />
----<br />
<br />
Yes, 0xC0 is very much correlated with CPU temperature. But if it's the northbrighe then it's surpsigingly cool, since northbridges usually run pretty hot, and the 815PM has a small surface area and no cooling assembly whatsoever, see here:<br />
<br />
[[Image:ThinkPad-T43-under-keyboard-left.jpg|500px|T43 systemboard]] (click to enlarge)<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 00:45, 5 Dec 2005 (CET)<br />
----<br />
Mmmh, I guess I'll remove the keyboard and play with some cooling spray. It seems that a good part of the inside area can be reached through the opening of the keyboard.<br />
<br />
-- Shimodax 23:15 CET - 2005-12-05<br />
<br />
-----<br />
Just in case - these [http://www-307.ibm.com/pc/support/site.wss/document.do?lndocid=MIGR-50233 instructions and movies] are pretty useful. It looks like the palmrest should be easy to remove too, but I didn't try that.<br />
<br />
Keep us posted :-)<br />
<br />
And please take plenty of photos! You never know what you'll want to look up later (as with those 0xC2 power chips above).<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 17:34, 6 Dec 2005 (CET)<br />
----<br />
Someone on a [http://thinkpad-forum.de/forum/viewtopic.php?p=29286#29286 German forum] reported that he saw pictures on an U.S. forum where someone said he located the 0xC1 with cooling spray. Seems indeed to be below the left of the touchpad on the mainboard (pictures on the forum article linked above)<br />
<br />
-- Shimodax 22:50 CET - 2005-12-06<br />
----<br />
Interesting. That's a T40, right? Similar layout but different cooling assembly. Anyway, the T40 didn't have HDAPS, but on the T43 the HDAPS accelerometer chip is just 1 or 2 centimeters down from the location of the chip marked here. And on the T43, sensor 0xC1 and direct HDAPS reads give very different results. So maybe they moved 0xC1 away on the T43? Or, maybe the temperatures read through by HDAPS driver actually come from a separate sensor located elsewhere (unlikely but possible).<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 01:05, 7 Dec 2005 (CET)<br />
----<br />
Yep, that was a T40. Well, I purchased a can of cooling spray today. First results without opening the machine indicate 0xC2 is near the grill below the Esc-F3 keys. The currently still unknown 0x7A cools down if I spray into the PCMCIA slot (also makes sense to place a sensor there, I'd say it is on the mainboard below the slots).<br />
<br />
Probably will open the case tonight or tomorrow. I guess for precise results I'll need to remove the bezel and the fan ... quite an adventure ;-). Will keep you posted of further results.<br />
<br />
-- Shimodax 2005-12-07<br />
----<br />
<br />
Speaking of the PCMCIA port - I noticed that under heavy CPU load with the fan on, if I insert a PC Card into the slot then the CPU and 0x79 (HDAPS) temperature quickly go up a couple of degrees. This happens even if the PC Card is turned off or not inserted all the way in (no electric contact). Probably blocked airflow.<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 20:08, 7 Dec 2005 (CET)<br />
----<br />
I opened the thing today and played around a bit. Here's my assesment of where the sensors are:<br />
[http://img363.imageshack.us/img363/545/pc080805custom22ef.jpg Image] (dunno how to upload an image here, feel free to add it to thinkwiki directly).<br />
<br />
C1 is most likely the Southbridge chip itself, APS and BUS are the small highlighted chips or very near them. PWR did not react much to the spray, but does react to spraying throught the grill on the bottom of the case, so it's probably on the underside.<br />
<br />
-- Shimodax 2005-12-08<br />
<br />
[[Image:T43-thermal-sensors.jpg|ThinkPad T43 thermal sensors|700px]] (click to enlarge)<br />
<br />
----<br />
<br />
Shimodax,<br />
<br />
Beautiful, beautiful work! Got everything back in working order, I hope, including those pesky screwcap stickers?<br />
<br />
This confirms our information/guesses about CPU,GPU,BAT,BAT2,PWR and Southbridge, and solves the mystery of 0x7A (PCMCIA) and 0xCA (Northbridge-RAM bus). A few notes:<br />
<br />
* 0x79 is a surprise - it is quite far from the HDAPS acceleromater chip (search for "accelerometer" [ftp://ftp.software.ibm.com/pc/pccbbs/mobiles_pdf/39t2393.pdf here]), even though it gives the same temperatures as when reading the accelerometer's IO ports. But this explains why 0x89 quickly gets hotter under load when the PCMCIA port is blocked.<br />
* The mapping is indeed different from the R52 one that people keep citing because of the ibm-acpi documentation - the 2nd and 3rd sensors are ''not'' HDD and Mini-PCI.<br />
* Some of the chips are a quite distant from the hot components they presumably monitor. Most significantly, when some usage causes the Northbridge to heat up rapidly, by the time sensor 0xC0 says 55 degrees the Northbridge core is probably above 60.<br />
<br />
Shimodoax, it would be great if you could upload more (unprocessed) photos, either to the Wiki (using the "Upload file" button on the left navigation bar) or by links. Deserves its own Wikipage, I think. It will save a lot of people the need to open their laptop too... For example, in regard to a discussion from yesterday further up the page - got a clear photo of the fan power connector, by any chance?<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 18:38, 8 Dec 2005 (CET)<br />
----<br />
<br />
See [[Thermal sensors]].<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 19:48, 8 Dec 2005 (CET)<br />
----<br />
Just for the record: I did not test the two BAT locations, these were taken from your previous description. Regarding the other locations, I'm quite sure about them but not 100% definite. I would not treat them as bullet proof fact until someone else confirms the experiment.<br />
<br />
The whole procedure went quite smoothly. I just found that there were three screws missing in my machine but luckily I had ordered a thinkpad screw kit on Ebay a few days ago. Also, on my model I did not need the stickers, all screws were without one. Just mone minor mishap happened when I stuck one of the #2 screws in the wrong hole (there is an empty hole that looks like a screw hole about 4mm from the intended location) and had a hard time getting the screw out.<br />
<br />
I still have no idea how to upload stuff here, maybe becaue I don't have an account here. I do have a couple more pictures, also larger ones, although they are not too great photography. I'll upload them to the thinkpad forum via imageshack and you can grab them and put them here. <br />
<br />
-- Shimodax -- 2005-12-08<br />
----<br />
Maybe those missing screws were the 3 optional Torx screws "protecting" the wireless card (lip service to FCC regulations). Yes, uploads require an account (registation is straightforward, and has some perks). BTW, and that extra hole fooled me too. :-)<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 20:45, 8 Dec 2005 (CET)<br />
----<br />
One of the missing screws was the one that secures the HD, the other were two #1 near the front. <br />
I just zipped and uploaded the other pictures to our server: [http://www.emtec.com/zzstuff/T43-2668.zip T43-2668.zip]. Feel free to upload or use them anywhere you want.<br />
<br />
-- Shimodax -- 2005-12-08<br />
<br />
== Southbridge sensor 0xC1 ==<br />
<br />
The southbridge on the T43 does not have a built-in thermal sensor, according to its specs (see [[Intel 82801FBM]]). So sensor 0xC1 may be adjacent or on the underside of the system board.<br />
----<br />
That's possible. Spraying the Southbridge chip did yield the most direct temperature changes, but they were not as quick as I would have expected (I attributed that to the large size of the chip). So it may indeed be the underside or something near (there wasn't anything visible that looked like the BUS or APS sensors in my picture.)<br />
<br />
--Shimodax</div>212.34.172.148https://www.thinkwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Problem_with_fan_noise&diff=13048Talk:Problem with fan noise2005-12-08T14:19:23Z<p>212.34.172.148: /* Secret sensor and the cause of fan always on */</p>
<hr />
<div>== Problem with fan noise on R51 1829 L7G (ATI M9) ==<br />
<br />
On my R51 the fan is behaving like this:<br />
<br />
* > 45C -> fan on;<br />
* < 38C -> fan off.<br />
<br />
By using cpufreq + laptop_mode + Xorg DynamicClocks + WiFi power management, I get the fan stopped time to time, but only for 3 minutes time (transition from 38 C -> 45 C). The cooling down cycle is taking 20 minutes in the best case.<br />
<br />
I knew about the 'ibm_acpi experimental=1' trick, but in my opinion this is not very useful since nobody can guarantee that a temperature greater then 45 C will not damage the laptop and in the same time the transition time is very short (the laptop gets hot fast without fan).<br />
<br />
== Thinkpad T42 Radeon Mobility M7 ==<br />
<br />
When Xorg is running, the fan is always on and pretty loud !<br />
Setting DynamicClocks does not help<br />
<br />
it's clear that the GPU is the problem on the thinkpad :<br />
<br />
after 10minutes with the fan off<br />
temperatures: 44 47 33 52 32 -128 24 -128<br />
<br />
1: CPU<br />
2: Mini PCI Module<br />
3: HDD<br />
4: GPU<br />
5: Battery<br />
6: N/A<br />
7: Battery<br />
8: N/A<br />
<br />
Controlling the fan speed would be really cool !<br />
<br />
What is the maximum temperature not to cross ?<br />
----<br />
Word on the 'net is that 85 degrees is the max operating temp for most of the Intel chips. I've seen some high 70's all the time (just put it on carpet for awhile and play some quake3 :). I wouldn't let your processor get much higher than 85...<br />
<br />
----<br />
Older versions of xorg (i.e. 6.7.0) don't seem to be able to use the DynamicClocks option although it's set in the xorg.conf. Search the log to find out if it's really used.<br />
<br />
== Thinkpad R32 with Radeon Mobility M6 ==<br />
<br />
Updating xorg-x11 from 6.7.0 to 6.8.2 and using Speedstep (with the ondemand module in this case) helped cooling the system down significantly:<br />
<br />
* before updating the CPU was ~62 C in idle state, and got very near the critical temperature (72 C) during heavy load - I even got some freezes because of the heat ;)<br />
* after the update the CPU is ~54 C in idle state, and still gets to about 68 C while under heavy load<br />
<br />
The second sensor (which may be the GPU) is somehow fixed to 50 C (maybe a bug?)<br />
<br />
The fan on the R32 is behaving like this:<br />
<br />
* > 61 -> fan in state 2 (quite noisy)<br />
* < 55 -> fan in state 1 (less noisy :) )<br />
<br />
But I remember using my old SuSE distribution with kernel 2.4.16, apm and some old x11 version the fan actually stopped completely from time to time.<br />
<br />
Concerning the maximum temperature of the CPU, I found that the critical temperature on the R32 for the CPU sensor is 72 C<br />
(using {{cmdroot|cat /proc/acpi/thermal_zone/THM0/trip_points }} )<br />
<br />
== Fan Control script: more safe version ==<br />
<br />
ibm_acpi works well on my R50 and R51. But to rely on it completely, I modified the script in two ways:<br />
<br />
1. It catches verious signals and turns the fan on before it quits<br />
<br />
2. It turns off the fan under very strict conditions, leaving it on when unexpected errors occur.<br />
<br />
Here is my script:<br />
<br />
#!/bin/sh<br />
<br />
# july 2005 Erik Groeneveld, erik@cq2.nl<br />
# More conservatiev and saver version<br />
# It make sure the fan is on in case of errors<br />
# and only turns it off when all temps are ok.<br />
<br />
IBM_ACPI=/proc/acpi/ibm<br />
THERMOMETER=$IBM_ACPI/thermal<br />
FAN=$IBM_ACPI/fan<br />
MAXTRIPPOINT=65<br />
MINTRIPPOINT=60<br />
TRIPPOINT=$MINTRIPPOINT<br />
<br />
echo fancontrol: Thermometer: $THERMOMETER, Fan: $FAN<br />
echo fancontrol: Current `cat $THERMOMETER`<br />
echo fancontrol: Controlling temperatures between $MINTRIPPOINT and $MAXTRIPPOINT degrees.<br />
<br />
# Make sure the fan is turned on when the script crashes or is killed<br />
trap "echo enable > $FAN; exit 0" HUP KILL INT ABRT STOP QUIT SEGV TERM<br />
<br />
while [ 1 ];<br />
do<br />
command=enable<br />
temperatures=`sed s/temperatures:// < $THERMOMETER`<br />
result=<br />
for temp in $temperatures<br />
do<br />
test $temp -le $TRIPPOINT && result=$result.Ok<br />
done<br />
if [ "$result" = ".Ok.Ok.Ok.Ok.Ok.Ok.Ok.Ok" ]; then<br />
command=disable<br />
TRIPPOINT=$MAXTRIPPOINT<br />
else<br />
command=enable<br />
TRIPPOINT=$MINTRIPPOINT<br />
fi<br />
echo $command > $FAN<br />
# Temperature ramps up quickly, so pick this not too large:<br />
sleep 5<br />
done<br />
<br />
----<br />
I added this script to the other ones. Don't wander about my talk edits, i didn't realize i was on the talk page. [[User:Wyrfel|Wyrfel]] 01:48, 13 Aug 2005 (CEST)<br />
----<br />
<br />
== X41 ==<br />
<br />
Same fan problem here on the X41. Once it starts it won't stop (unless it is _very_ cold outside). Undervolting the CPU doesn't help - still the same problem.<br />
<br />
== Fan speed control? ==<br />
<br />
Only the X31 and X40 have an ACPI method for controlling the FAN speed (this is why ibm_acpi provides this functionality just for these models).<br />
<br />
What will happen if we take the "FANS" method from the [http://acpi.sourceforge.net/dsdt/view.php?id=219 X40 DSDT], paste it into a iasl-disassembled DSDT of (say) a T43, recompile it and [http://gaugusch.at/kernel.shtml tell the kernel] to use the patched DSDT? ibm_acpi will present the functionality, but it may or may not work.<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 16:16, 28 Sep 2005 (CEST)<br />
<br />
Any risk of damaging the hardware when doing this? E.g. what does occur if the system overheats - will the CPU be destroyed are does it automatically switch of? As I've just bought a new X41 I don't want to take any stupid risks - but otherwise I'd say let's try it out.<br />
<br />
--gst Thu Sep 29 18:14:13 CEST 2005<br />
<br />
I think Intel CPUs have some built-in thermal protection, but I'd hate to test it. And of course, any fiddling with the hardware at this level might damage it. That said, when the CPU is mostly idle it keeps a reasonable temperature even when the fan is disabled, so as long as you keep an eye on both the CPU usage meter and /proc/acpi/ibm/thermal, things should be pretty safe temperature-wise. For extra safety you can force the CPU to its lowest speed via {{path|/sys/devices/system/cpu/cpu0/cpufreq/scaling_max_freq}}.<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 18:33, 29 Sep 2005 (CEST)<br />
<br />
<br />
----<br />
<br />
Anybody tried to slow down the fan and have it running at ~1000-1500rpm? That would make it almost silent and you could have it always running (like Apple does on Macs).<br />
<br />
--[[User:Micampe|Micampe]] 12:56, 7 Dec 2005 (CET)<br />
----<br />
<br />
Goot question. The embedded controller [[patch_for_controlling_fan_speed|interface]] we have discovered allows only for setting a fan level between 0 and 7, not the actual RPM. And IBM has been ramping up the RPM assignment of each fan level (look at the model-specific data there), so that on the T43, even the lowest accessible level is at a pretty fast 3300RPM. The following ''might'' provide a way around this, if the hardware is capable of generating lower speeds:<br />
* Patch the embedded controller firmware. You will need the information in [http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?p=113904#113904 this post] and the following one, a lot of patience, and an active warranty.<br />
* Find out how the embedded controller is setting the speed (maybe by disassembling it as above, but at least you don't need to load patched firmware). Maybe the EC is changing the speed by instructing ''another'' component over an interface (SMBus?) that can also be accessed directly by the CPU. In this case, maybe you can put the embedded controller in disengaged mode and control that component directly.<br />
<br />
Then, there's the soldering-iron approach. Assuming the fan uses the standard wiring and that its speed determined by the provided voltage, you can make all speeds somewhat slower simply by putting a resistor in series with the fan. You can do that by splicing one of the wires or, to avoid voiding your warranty, just build an extension cable like this:<br />
<br />
fan cable extension <br />
#------- Vfan --------#> >#---~~R~~---#> >#SYSTEM<br />
FAN#------- SENSE -------#> >#-----------#> >#BOARD<br />
#------- GND ---------#> >#-----------#> >#CONNECTOR<br />
<br />
Use an appropriate resistor R, and make sure it doesn't get too hot (if it does, attach it to the fan's cooling assembly). Worked nicely for me a few years ago on some desktop motherboard. If you're into that kind of stuff, you can also use fancier electronics instead of the resistor to avoid the (minor) power waste.<br />
<br />
It would be useful to have some pictures of the fan cable connector so we can get a matching pair (it's above the rear right corner of the PCMCIA slot, under the palmrest but maybe visible with just the keyboard removed).<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 14:36, 7 Dec 2005 (CET)<br />
----<br />
<br />
== Further discussion ==<br />
<br />
I've just found a very interesting thread regarding the same issue on HP notebooks. IMO it provides many insight information about heat/fan problems in general, the URL is: http://forums1.itrc.hp.com/service/forums/questionanswer.do?threadId=853249<br />
Especially the posts by the HP engineer "Andy Fisher" are very interesting. IBM should be able to provide the same BIOS fix as HP did (maybe I should have bought an HP notebook instead of a Thinkpad?).<br />
<br />
I've also contacted IBM/Lenovo support via the website about the fan issue. Maybe it helps when others do this as well (especially people who bought larger quantities) so that this issue is taken serious by Lenovo. Is there already any official response to this problem?<br />
<br />
--gst Thu Sep 29 19:40:34 CEST 2005<br />
----<br />
<br />
Two of the changes mentioned by the HP engineer make perfect sense here: raise the low trip points and make speed transition gradual. Oh, and get rid of the annoying beat pattern (a brief speed pulse every few seconds) it sometimes gets into!<br />
<br />
But from our perspective, what would probably be best is to do the whole thing in software, providing the flexibility for personal preferences and smart decisions. The hardware would only enforce emergency override or throttle/shutdown for extreme temperatures. Then we could do cute things like having a software daemon lower the thresholds in a noisy environment (as judged using the built-in microphone) or when the laptop is on the user's lap (as judged by the built-in accelometers).<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 18:47, 30 Sep 2005 (CEST)<br />
<br />
I noticed that on my T43 the fan is usually in one of two modes, low speed (around 3300 RPM, triggered around CPU=47deg) and medium speed (around 4100 RPM, can't figure out the trip condition). The former is nearly inaudible, but the latter is quite noticable in the absense of strong background noises.<br />
<br />
Now, the problem is that once it has tripped into medium speed, it usually never comes back to low speed until the next reboot. So once it happens, to quiet things down I can only run one of the fan-disabling scripts given here. But with a disabled fan the T43 is not thermally stable, so it will spend its time moving back and forth between the hysteresis thresholds, i.e., toggling between 4100 RPM and 0 RPM every few minutes. This is quite silly and annoying, when staying at low speed would be both more stable and more quiet.<br />
<br />
I hope someone will find a way to control the fan speed, or at least to reset the embedded controller's hysteresis state.<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 10:29, 6 Oct 2005 (CEST)<br />
<br />
When you do changes to e.g. the Energy Schema in Windows or you eject the Thinkpad of the Docking Station it seems that the controllers state is rest. At least on the X41 the fan does stop until it reaches the threshold to start some minutes later. So it should be doable. --85.124.171.70<br />
<br />
That's good. But just like a bunch of other functions (e.g., controlling the battery charge threshold), it probably uses low-level undocumented proprietary interfaces which are very hard to figure out without the help of IBM/Lenovo, who are in denial about the whole thing. --[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 01:40, 16 Oct 2005 (CEST)<br />
<br />
----<br />
<br />
== Works fine with APM instead of ACPI? ==<br />
<br />
On my X41 the fan starts after about 10 minutes of use and doesn't stop (until it is rather cold in my room - and even then it runs most of the time ;) A friend of mine who has a X41 too (though another model) and who does use NetBSD and APM doesn't experience this problem. He claims that the fan only comes up if the system is not idle. So either it is colder in his room, the X41 model which he has doesn't have this flaw or APM does use different tresholds than ACPI.<br />
<br />
* Then why not just try the {{bootparm|acpi|off}} kernel parameter and see what happens? --[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 18:14, 30 Sep 2005 (CEST)<br />
<br />
I currently don't have physical access to the X41. Will try in a few days.<br />
<br />
== Rewiring the fan? ==<br />
<br />
Since IBM/Lenovo shows no intention of fixing their embedded controller firmware or releasing its specs, how about getting the embedded controller out of the loop? I'd be happy as a clam if my fan was hard-wired to work at a constant 3000RPM, with temperatures kept at bay in software through CPU frequenty control.<br />
<br />
Assuming the fan has the standard 3-wire connector, we can probaby keep the sensor and ground wires untouched, and rewire the positive wire to some nearby current source of appropriate voltage (through a resistor, for fine-tuning). The trick would be to find an easily tappable source that can handle an extra 2W and has the appropriate voltage (i.e., just slightly higher than what the fan needs to rotate at that RPM, so we don't waste too much energy in the resistor). Any idea what are the typical fan voltages and what would be an appropriate hookup point?<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 01:59, 16 Oct 2005 (CEST)<br />
----<br />
<br />
== Secret sensor and the cause of fan always on ==<br />
<br />
On my {{T43}}, ecdump offsets 0xC0-0xC2 seem to include 3 more temperature sensors that are not seen in {{path|/proc/acpi/ibm/thermal}}:<br />
# cat /proc/acpi/ibm/thermal; <br />
temperatures: 44 41 33 42 33 -128 30 -128<br />
# perl -ne 'm/^EC 0xc0: .(..) .(..) .(..) / or next; print hex($1)." ".hex($2)." ".hex($3)."\n"' < /proc/acpi/ibm/ecdump<br />
40 48 43<br />
<br />
Note the "48" entry (EC offset 0xC1). Something's pretty hot even at full full speed (level 7, 4700RPM). This sensor increases very quickly when the system starts (in fact, faster than anything else when the CPU is undervolted and [[fglrx]] is in maximum powersaving).<br />
<br />
Now, note this: the fan kicks up from low speed to medium speed whenever this sensor reaches 46 degrees, even if no other sensor changes; and this seems to usually be the first trigger encountered. Moreover, this sensor hovers around 47-48 degrees even on an idle machine. Taken together, '''this fully explains the "fan always on" behavior: a previously-unnoticed sensor that's always hot.'''<br />
<br />
Any idea what this sensor is? It seems correlated with WiFi: there's a 2deg difference when I toggle {{path|/sys/bus/pci/drivers/ipw2200/*/rf_kill}} (without ever being associated so this shouldn't affect anything else), and heavy WiFi data transfer increases temperature by several more degrees. This suggests the sensor is located in or close to the mini-PCI slot (i.e., under the touchpad). That region is indeed often hot to the touch. But why would the mini-PCI slot get so hot? Could it be the southbridge, which sits under the mini-PCI slot with no heatsink and poor ventilation? Can anyone correlate this sensor other specific activity, or with blocking of specific ventilation holes, or with cooling of specific components? If it's the mini-PCI slot? The operating temperature of the Intel 2200BG is [ftp://download.intel.com/network/connectivity/resources/doc_library/tech_brief/2200bg_prodbrief.pdf 0-80 deg].<br />
<br />
Caveat: this is my experience with a {{T43}} after [[Pentium M undervolting and underclocking|undervolting]] the CPU and activating [[How to make use of Graphics Chips Power Management features|maximal GPU powersaving using fglrx]]. It could be that for other people, other components are the first to trigger. But either way, those are 3 temperature sensors we didn't know of and they're used by the Embedded Controller's algorithm.<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 16:20, 20 Nov 2005 (CET)<br />
----<br />
<br />
At the moment I am experimenting with controlling the fan on Windows XP with a self written tool on a {{T43}} (Model 2668 97G). Having found the information about the secret sensors here I built these into the program and it seems that after starting my cooled (placed outside) {{T43}} the 0xC1 sensor indeed rises fastest but also cools down quite quicky especially if also the CPU is cool. I have seen it hotter than the CPU but not much cooler, so probably it is a small chip connected to the colling element of the CPU.<br />
<br />
The values at 0xC0 and 0xC2 also seem to show temperature values here, while 0xC4 is always at 128.<br />
<br />
First experiments indicate that as long as all the temperature value are below 43°C the Thinkpad comes up with no fan and stays that way. (The fan control register at EC offset 0x2F set to 0x80, see the bottom of the [[patch for controlling fan speed]] page for a description of this register). If 43°C are reached on the 0xC1 sensor, the fan kicks in with low speed while 43°C on the CPU do not activate the fan. With regard to the CPU the kick-in seems to be around 48°C.<br />
<br />
Once the fan is on, it goes off again if all the seonsors drop to the area of 38°C or lower (the value may not be precise). But it hardly happens on it's own, for tests I placed it outside in cold weather.<br />
<br />
On [http://forum.thinkpads.com/ forums.thinkpad.com] is a ([http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=14580http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=14580 discussion]) from users who experimented with physically cooling the North- and Southbridge without success. In a different thread there a user claimed that he worked with a couple of Thinkpads and silenced them by turning off unused devices, WLAN being among them.<br />
<br />
With the XP WLAN device disabled the temperature on 0xC1 stays around 41°C here even if there is heavy activity on the CPU. It rises as soon as the WLAN device is enabled but hardly goes any hotter than 44°C. But I also could not make it go hot at all running on battery. And the heat reading there somehow more or less follows the value of the CPU.<br />
<br />
Bottom line on my {{T43}} (2668 97G): Fan kicks in for CPU around 48°C or 0xC1 at 43°C and then never goes off again unless you use external cooling. 0xC1 sensor could to be related to WLAN (I'm not really sure about it) and/or is probably placed near the CPU. It could also have something to do with running the machine no AC rather than battery.<br />
<br />
-- Shimdoax - 2005-11-27<br />
----<br />
<br />
Shimdoax, you said "''I have seen it hotter than the CPU but not much cooler, so probably it is a small chip connected to the colling element of the CPU''", but also "''the temperature on 0xC1 stays around 41°C here even if there is heavy activity on the CPU''". It follows that your CPU is never much hotter than 41°C, which I find unlikely... Anyway, on my T43, sensor 0cC1 is correlated with the CPU but very slightly; it is more correlated with the GPU, but not very much either.<br />
<br />
I suspect that sensor 0xC1 sits on the system board under the touchpad, since this is consistent with all of the following:<br />
* In idle with wireless off, sensor 0xC1 has roughly the same temperature as the GPU (which is adjacent on the system board, under the spacebar and TrackPoint buttons).<br />
* Correlation with the WLAN card activity (which is sandwiched between the system board and the touchpad).<br />
* Quick warm-up (the southbridge is also on the system board under the touchpad, and has no heat spreader).<br />
* Negligible effect of fan speed on 0xC1 temperature (the touchpad area is cramped and lacks decent ventilation, hence has negligible air flow).<br />
* When I place a 12cm-by-12cm pad of thick thermally isolating material (a folded fleece blanket...) under the touchpad, 0xC1 temperature consistently rises by 2-3 degrees (and cools back when I remove the pad); other sensors seem unaffected.<br />
<br />
If this is indeed the case, it's hard to see what can be done (other than using a fan control script with an increased threshold for this sensor). It looks like IBM/Lenovo counted on this area being passively cooled through the bottom of the case - see how the bottom of the laptop is designed to allow air flow under the front quarter? However, once the desk under the laptop has warmed up (or if air flow is blocked, as when the laptop is sitting on the top of a lap), things just cook up. The [http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=14580http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=14580 mods] which thermally connet the southbridge to the GPU cooling assembly might improve things a bit, but on my system sensor 0xC1 isn't much hotter than the GPU anyway. Maybe ventilation can be improved by letting in more air through the speaker grills on the front - does anyone know what things looks like, under the very front of the palmrest? This won't solve "fan always on" since it will help only when the fan is on, but it may let the fan run at a lower speed.<br />
<br />
BTW, Shimdoax, how are you monitoring/controlling the EC under Windows?<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 18:22, 27 Nov 2005 (CET)<br />
----<br />
<br />
Thinker,<br />
<br />
I currently don't know where to read the GPU temp from, so I can't say much about it (I'm running XP and have not found drivers or tools that would display the GPU).<br />
<br />
However, regarding my experiments: I had the machine on my desk earlier today (when I wrote the post) on AC with WLAN connection to the office network and "Max. Battery Life" Scheme. I had taken it from the trunk of the car (it's quite cold outside, around freezing). During the whole experiments the CPU hardly went higher than 46°C, most of the time it was around 39°C to 43°C. I wasn't very systematic in these tests, these were just first observations.<br />
<br />
However, I think I can confirm that the 43°C on the C1 triggers the fan on my machine here. 48°C to 50°C on the CPU also triggers the fan on. Then I put the laptop outside the window twice. Temperatures dropped quite quickly and around MAX(CPU, 0xC1) of 38°C the fan turned itself off.<br />
<br />
Further tests on the WLAN revealed mixed results about correlation. If the CPU goes up the C1 also goes up, even if WLAN is disabled. On the other hand I had cases where WLAN (big folder copy) made the C1 rise ahead of the CPU. The way I tested it, mostly the C1 triggered the fan before the CPU did. This at least explains why CPU undervolting/clocking doesn't help much.<br />
<br />
But I think you're right. Without custom scripts I guess it will be hard to keep the C1 below 43°C. This value may even be intentional by IBM. If it is really near the palmrest, higher values may cause burns (I once read about a guy who actually burnt his balls [no joke!] by working with a laptop which had a 42°C - 45°C battery temp. in his lap for an hour or two). So they may think that fan noise is preferrable to bad publicity.<br />
<br />
Hence I'm not counting on IBM. Instead I'm currently writing a custom fan control program for XP, that's how I read the EC there. I'll post a first version [http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=17715 here] later today. Maybe some folks from the hardware modding thread will help to locate the sensors with some cooling spray.<br />
<br />
-- Shimodax - 2005-11-27<br />
----<br />
<br />
Shimodax,<br />
<br />
Great to see work on a Windows solution, especially from Emtec! (Alas, I let my ZOC registration expire when I switched to Linux). Will you be releasing the source code? <br />
<br />
If the 0xC1 sensor is near the southbridge then it will be affected by CPU activity both because of related southbridge activity and by thermal conductance via the motherboard; but I've seen 0xC1 at 47deg and CPU at 59deg (after a long burn-in), so they can't be too close. About the palmrest, IBM actually brags about low palm rest temperature in some of their marketing publication. But ironically the hottest and worst-cooled area of the laptop (where I suspect 0xC1 sits) is in the bottom center right under the touchpad - which tends to coincide with certain anatomical regions... BTW, GPU temp is EC offset 0x7B; there a partial list inside my new fan control script at [[Talk:ACPI_fan_control_script]] (I'll move it to the article page soon).<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 23:20, 27 Nov 2005 (CET)<br />
----<br />
<br />
+LOL+ I wouldn't have expected that anybody would know me :-)<br />
<br />
Yes, I'll release source code soon. I took quite some pain in writing this tool without our proprietary classes and libs in order to be able to release the source (or at least maintain a basic Open Source version). I'll see if SourceForge accepts the project (applied on Saturday), otherwise I'll have find another place.<br />
<br />
Thanks for the info about the GPU ... <br />
<br />
Markus<br />
<br />
-- Shimodax - 23:42 (CET) - 2005-11-27<br />
----<br />
<br />
For the record: the new [http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?p=111974 "Shimodax fan control tool : sharing values"] topic at the thinkpads.com forums tracks some other users' experience with their sensor. So far the only new observation is that sensor 0x7A (3rd) is probably in the vicinity of the the CPU or northbridge.<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 12:53, 28 Nov 2005 (CET)<br />
----<br />
<br />
Just now I see the C2 higher than C1 and rest of the system for the first time. Only difference I can think of is the fact that the battery is loading. I hooked it on with 6% left about 30 minutes ago. Usage was mainly web broswing (firefox, maybe a webpage with animated gif ads). C2 triggered the fan at 50°C two times.<br />
<br />
CPU 42°C (0x78)<br />
APS 41°C (0x79)<br />
X7A 34°C (0x7A)<br />
GPU 44°C (0x7B)<br />
BAT 40°C (0x7C)<br />
BAT 31°C (0x7E)<br />
XC0 40°C (0xC0)<br />
XC1 46°C (0xC1)<br />
XC2 48°C (0xC2)<br />
<br />
-- Shimodax 00:17 CET - 2005-11-30<br />
----<br />
<br />
Upon further casual observation I would like to offer the theory that the C2 sensor is indeed related to battery loading and may be located rear/left (under the Esc/F1) on a T43. See: page 2 on [http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?p=111974 "Shimodax fan control tool : sharing values"]<br />
<br />
-- Shimodax 13:27 CET - 2005-12-01<br />
----<br />
<br />
I happen to have a photo of that area from the last time I opened my T43, and indeed it looks like there's some power circuitry there:<br />
<br />
[[Image:T43-2686-DGU-CDC.jpg|500px|T43 CDC]]<br />
<br />
Those two "150 A47L" are just above the ventilation grill. Any idea what they could be?<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 20:11, 1 Dec 2005 (CET)<br />
----<br />
<br />
Don't know ... they could look like power stabilizing transistors, but I have very little knowledge of electronic (especially of SMD circuits) so that's just wild guessing.<br />
<br />
Hoever, the system is currently loading battery again and I played with the fan. The C2 does react to the fan quite slowly and when I forced the fan off it rose no higher than 55°C. Also from touching the bottom of the laptop, I'd say the hottest part of that area is between the grill and the latch for the DRAM expansion (probably below the thing in the center of your photo).<br />
<br />
-- Shimodax 01:53 CET - 2005-12-02<br />
<br />
----<br />
<br />
Makes perfect sense. So 0xC2 sits under the CDC and monitors the power circuitry (not just battery charging, since it also heats up slightly above its environment without a battery). Then XC2->PWR, I guess. Two more to go: 0x7A and 0xC0 (both are nice and cool here).<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 03:35, 2 Dec 2005 (CET)<br />
----<br />
<br />
I'll then rename it in my tool with the next release. Btw, do you have any idea what the APS might be on other models?<br />
<br />
-- Shimodax 14:07 CET - 2005-12-03<br />
----<br />
<br />
It's easy to check if 0x79 is the HDAPS accelerometer or not: read the HDAPS temperature directly and compare. For getting the HDAPS temperature you can follow the Linux hdaps.c driver, or just reboot to Linux and look at {{path|/sys/bus/platform/drivers/hdaps/hdaps/temp1}} (and at {{path|/proc/acpi/ibm/thermal}} for the first 8 EC sensors). On my T43, the 0x79 always matches the HDAPS sensor (usually identical but sometimes 1 degree off, probably due to a different sampling time). BTW, my [[ACPI_fan_control_script#Variable_speed_control_scripts|ACPI fan control script]] monitors both, just in case.<br />
<br />
Speaking of which, the table at the top of that script reflects all knowledge gleaned from the forum.tinkpads.com discussion. Feel free to update it (maybe we should move it to a separate and more spacious page?).<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 15:03, 3 Dec 2005 (CET)<br />
----<br />
<br />
For another view of the 0xC2 area, including a peek under the CDC card, see IBM/Lenovo's [http://www-307.ibm.com/pc/support/site.wss/document.do?sitestyle=lenovo&lndocid=MIGR-51451 CDC removal movie]. There seems to be nothing very exciting visible on the upper side on the motherboard (but judging by the plastic buldge in the bottom of the case, there's probably some circuitry on the underside).<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 16:39, 3 Dec 2005 (CET)<br />
----<br />
I just had the idea that 0xC0 could be the Northbridge chip. See [http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?p=111974 "Shimodax fan control tool : sharing values"]<br />
<br />
-- Shimodax 23:15 CET - 2005-12-05<br />
----<br />
<br />
Yes, 0xC0 is very much correlated with CPU temperature. But if it's the northbrighe then it's surpsigingly cool, since northbridges usually run pretty hot, and the 815PM has a small surface area and no cooling assembly whatsoever, see here:<br />
<br />
[[Image:ThinkPad-T43-under-keyboard-left.jpg|500px|T43 systemboard]] (click to enlarge)<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 00:45, 5 Dec 2005 (CET)<br />
----<br />
Mmmh, I guess I'll remove the keyboard and play with some cooling spray. It seems that a good part of the inside area can be reached through the opening of the keyboard.<br />
<br />
-- Shimodax 23:15 CET - 2005-12-05<br />
<br />
-----<br />
Just in case - these [http://www-307.ibm.com/pc/support/site.wss/document.do?lndocid=MIGR-50233 instructions and movies] are pretty useful. It looks like the palmrest should be easy to remove too, but I didn't try that.<br />
<br />
Keep us posted :-)<br />
<br />
And please take plenty of photos! You never know what you'll want to look up later (as with those 0xC2 power chips above).<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 17:34, 6 Dec 2005 (CET)<br />
----<br />
Someone on a [http://thinkpad-forum.de/forum/viewtopic.php?p=29286#29286 German forum] reported that he saw pictures on an U.S. forum where someone said he located the 0xC1 with cooling spray. Seems indeed to be below the left of the touchpad on the mainboard (pictures on the forum article linked above)<br />
<br />
-- Shimodax 22:50 CET - 2005-12-06<br />
----<br />
Interesting. That's a T40, right? Similar layout but different cooling assembly. Anyway, the T40 didn't have HDAPS, but on the T43 the HDAPS accelerometer chip is just 1 or 2 centimeters down from the location of the chip marked here. And on the T43, sensor 0xC1 and direct HDAPS reads give very different results. So maybe they moved 0xC1 away on the T43? Or, maybe the temperatures read through by HDAPS driver actually come from a separate sensor located elsewhere (unlikely but possible).<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 01:05, 7 Dec 2005 (CET)<br />
----<br />
Yep, that was a T40. Well, I purchased a can of cooling spray today. First results without opening the machine indicate 0xC2 is near the grill below the Esc-F3 keys. The currently still unknown 0x7A cools down if I spray into the PCMCIA slot (also makes sense to place a sensor there, I'd say it is on the mainboard below the slots).<br />
<br />
Probably will open the case tonight or tomorrow. I guess for precise results I'll need to remove the bezel and the fan ... quite an adventure ;-). Will keep you posted of further results.<br />
<br />
-- Shimodax 2005-12-07<br />
----<br />
<br />
Speaking of the PCMCIA port - I noticed that under heavy CPU load with the fan on, if I insert a PC Card into the slot then the CPU and 0x79 (HDAPS) temperature quickly go up a couple of degrees. This happens even if the PC Card is turned off or not inserted all the way in (no electric contact). Probably blocked airflow.<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 20:08, 7 Dec 2005 (CET)<br />
----<br />
I opened the thing today and played around a bit. Here's my assesment of where the sensors are:<br />
[http://img363.imageshack.us/img363/545/pc080805custom22ef.jpg Image] (dunno how to upload an image here, feel free to add it to thinkwiki directly).<br />
<br />
C1 is most likely the Southbridge chip itself, APS and BUS are the small highlighted chips or very near them. PWR did not react much to the spray, but does react to spraying throught the grill on the bottom of the case, so it's probably on the underside.<br />
<br />
-- Shimodax 2005-12-08</div>212.34.172.148https://www.thinkwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Problem_with_fan_noise&diff=13024Talk:Problem with fan noise2005-12-07T14:57:43Z<p>212.34.172.148: /* Secret sensor and the cause of fan always on */</p>
<hr />
<div>== Problem with fan noise on R51 1829 L7G (ATI M9) ==<br />
<br />
On my R51 the fan is behaving like this:<br />
<br />
* > 45C -> fan on;<br />
* < 38C -> fan off.<br />
<br />
By using cpufreq + laptop_mode + Xorg DynamicClocks + WiFi power management, I get the fan stopped time to time, but only for 3 minutes time (transition from 38 C -> 45 C). The cooling down cycle is taking 20 minutes in the best case.<br />
<br />
I knew about the 'ibm_acpi experimental=1' trick, but in my opinion this is not very useful since nobody can guarantee that a temperature greater then 45 C will not damage the laptop and in the same time the transition time is very short (the laptop gets hot fast without fan).<br />
<br />
== Thinkpad T42 Radeon Mobility M7 ==<br />
<br />
When Xorg is running, the fan is always on and pretty loud !<br />
Setting DynamicClocks does not help<br />
<br />
it's clear that the GPU is the problem on the thinkpad :<br />
<br />
after 10minutes with the fan off<br />
temperatures: 44 47 33 52 32 -128 24 -128<br />
<br />
1: CPU<br />
2: Mini PCI Module<br />
3: HDD<br />
4: GPU<br />
5: Battery<br />
6: N/A<br />
7: Battery<br />
8: N/A<br />
<br />
Controlling the fan speed would be really cool !<br />
<br />
What is the maximum temperature not to cross ?<br />
----<br />
Word on the 'net is that 85 degrees is the max operating temp for most of the Intel chips. I've seen some high 70's all the time (just put it on carpet for awhile and play some quake3 :). I wouldn't let your processor get much higher than 85...<br />
<br />
----<br />
Older versions of xorg (i.e. 6.7.0) don't seem to be able to use the DynamicClocks option although it's set in the xorg.conf. Search the log to find out if it's really used.<br />
<br />
== Thinkpad R32 with Radeon Mobility M6 ==<br />
<br />
Updating xorg-x11 from 6.7.0 to 6.8.2 and using Speedstep (with the ondemand module in this case) helped cooling the system down significantly:<br />
<br />
* before updating the CPU was ~62 C in idle state, and got very near the critical temperature (72 C) during heavy load - I even got some freezes because of the heat ;)<br />
* after the update the CPU is ~54 C in idle state, and still gets to about 68 C while under heavy load<br />
<br />
The second sensor (which may be the GPU) is somehow fixed to 50 C (maybe a bug?)<br />
<br />
The fan on the R32 is behaving like this:<br />
<br />
* > 61 -> fan in state 2 (quite noisy)<br />
* < 55 -> fan in state 1 (less noisy :) )<br />
<br />
But I remember using my old SuSE distribution with kernel 2.4.16, apm and some old x11 version the fan actually stopped completely from time to time.<br />
<br />
Concerning the maximum temperature of the CPU, I found that the critical temperature on the R32 for the CPU sensor is 72 C<br />
(using {{cmdroot|cat /proc/acpi/thermal_zone/THM0/trip_points }} )<br />
<br />
== Fan Control script: more safe version ==<br />
<br />
ibm_acpi works well on my R50 and R51. But to rely on it completely, I modified the script in two ways:<br />
<br />
1. It catches verious signals and turns the fan on before it quits<br />
<br />
2. It turns off the fan under very strict conditions, leaving it on when unexpected errors occur.<br />
<br />
Here is my script:<br />
<br />
#!/bin/sh<br />
<br />
# july 2005 Erik Groeneveld, erik@cq2.nl<br />
# More conservatiev and saver version<br />
# It make sure the fan is on in case of errors<br />
# and only turns it off when all temps are ok.<br />
<br />
IBM_ACPI=/proc/acpi/ibm<br />
THERMOMETER=$IBM_ACPI/thermal<br />
FAN=$IBM_ACPI/fan<br />
MAXTRIPPOINT=65<br />
MINTRIPPOINT=60<br />
TRIPPOINT=$MINTRIPPOINT<br />
<br />
echo fancontrol: Thermometer: $THERMOMETER, Fan: $FAN<br />
echo fancontrol: Current `cat $THERMOMETER`<br />
echo fancontrol: Controlling temperatures between $MINTRIPPOINT and $MAXTRIPPOINT degrees.<br />
<br />
# Make sure the fan is turned on when the script crashes or is killed<br />
trap "echo enable > $FAN; exit 0" HUP KILL INT ABRT STOP QUIT SEGV TERM<br />
<br />
while [ 1 ];<br />
do<br />
command=enable<br />
temperatures=`sed s/temperatures:// < $THERMOMETER`<br />
result=<br />
for temp in $temperatures<br />
do<br />
test $temp -le $TRIPPOINT && result=$result.Ok<br />
done<br />
if [ "$result" = ".Ok.Ok.Ok.Ok.Ok.Ok.Ok.Ok" ]; then<br />
command=disable<br />
TRIPPOINT=$MAXTRIPPOINT<br />
else<br />
command=enable<br />
TRIPPOINT=$MINTRIPPOINT<br />
fi<br />
echo $command > $FAN<br />
# Temperature ramps up quickly, so pick this not too large:<br />
sleep 5<br />
done<br />
<br />
----<br />
I added this script to the other ones. Don't wander about my talk edits, i didn't realize i was on the talk page. [[User:Wyrfel|Wyrfel]] 01:48, 13 Aug 2005 (CEST)<br />
----<br />
<br />
== X41 ==<br />
<br />
Same fan problem here on the X41. Once it starts it won't stop (unless it is _very_ cold outside). Undervolting the CPU doesn't help - still the same problem.<br />
<br />
== Fan speed control? ==<br />
<br />
Only the X31 and X40 have an ACPI method for controlling the FAN speed (this is why ibm_acpi provides this functionality just for these models).<br />
<br />
What will happen if we take the "FANS" method from the [http://acpi.sourceforge.net/dsdt/view.php?id=219 X40 DSDT], paste it into a iasl-disassembled DSDT of (say) a T43, recompile it and [http://gaugusch.at/kernel.shtml tell the kernel] to use the patched DSDT? ibm_acpi will present the functionality, but it may or may not work.<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 16:16, 28 Sep 2005 (CEST)<br />
<br />
Any risk of damaging the hardware when doing this? E.g. what does occur if the system overheats - will the CPU be destroyed are does it automatically switch of? As I've just bought a new X41 I don't want to take any stupid risks - but otherwise I'd say let's try it out.<br />
<br />
--gst Thu Sep 29 18:14:13 CEST 2005<br />
<br />
I think Intel CPUs have some built-in thermal protection, but I'd hate to test it. And of course, any fiddling with the hardware at this level might damage it. That said, when the CPU is mostly idle it keeps a reasonable temperature even when the fan is disabled, so as long as you keep an eye on both the CPU usage meter and /proc/acpi/ibm/thermal, things should be pretty safe temperature-wise. For extra safety you can force the CPU to its lowest speed via {{path|/sys/devices/system/cpu/cpu0/cpufreq/scaling_max_freq}}.<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 18:33, 29 Sep 2005 (CEST)<br />
<br />
<br />
----<br />
<br />
Anybody tried to slow down the fan and have it running at ~1000-1500rpm? That would make it almost silent and you could have it always running (like Apple does on Macs).<br />
<br />
--[[User:Micampe|Micampe]] 12:56, 7 Dec 2005 (CET)<br />
----<br />
<br />
Goot question. The embedded controller [[patch_for_controlling_fan_speed|interface]] we have discovered allows only for setting a fan level between 0 and 7, not the actual RPM. And IBM has been ramping up the RPM assignment of each fan level (look at the model-specific data there), so that on the T43, even the lowest accessible level is at a pretty fast 3300RPM. The following ''might'' provide a way around this, if the hardware is capable of generating lower speeds:<br />
* Patch the embedded controller firmware. You will need the information in [http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?p=113904#113904 this post] and the following one, a lot of patience, and an active warranty.<br />
* Find out how the embedded controller is setting the speed (maybe by disassembling it as above, but at least you don't need to load patched firmware). Maybe the EC is changing the speed by instructing ''another'' component over an interface (SMBus?) that can also be accessed directly by the CPU. In this case, maybe you can put the embedded controller in disengaged mode and control that component directly.<br />
<br />
Then, there's the soldering-iron approach. Assuming the fan uses the standard wiring and that its speed determined by the provided voltage, you can make all speeds somewhat slower simply by putting a resistor in series with the fan. You can do that by splicing one of the wires or, to avoid voiding your warranty, just build an extension cable like this:<br />
<br />
fan cable extension <br />
#------- Vfan --------#> >#---~~R~~---#> >#SYSTEM<br />
FAN#------- SENSE -------#> >#-----------#> >#BOARD<br />
#------- GND ---------#> >#-----------#> >#CONNECTOR<br />
<br />
Use an appropriate resistor R, and make sure it doesn't get too hot (if it does, attach it to the fan's cooling assembly). Worked nicely for me a few years ago on some desktop motherboard. If you're into that kind of stuff, you can also use fancier electronics instead of the resistor to avoid the (minor) power waste.<br />
<br />
It would be useful to have some pictures of the fan cable connector so we can get a matching pair (it's above the rear right corner of the PCMCIA slot, under the palmrest but maybe visible with just the keyboard removed).<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 14:36, 7 Dec 2005 (CET)<br />
----<br />
<br />
== Further discussion ==<br />
<br />
I've just found a very interesting thread regarding the same issue on HP notebooks. IMO it provides many insight information about heat/fan problems in general, the URL is: http://forums1.itrc.hp.com/service/forums/questionanswer.do?threadId=853249<br />
Especially the posts by the HP engineer "Andy Fisher" are very interesting. IBM should be able to provide the same BIOS fix as HP did (maybe I should have bought an HP notebook instead of a Thinkpad?).<br />
<br />
I've also contacted IBM/Lenovo support via the website about the fan issue. Maybe it helps when others do this as well (especially people who bought larger quantities) so that this issue is taken serious by Lenovo. Is there already any official response to this problem?<br />
<br />
--gst Thu Sep 29 19:40:34 CEST 2005<br />
----<br />
<br />
Two of the changes mentioned by the HP engineer make perfect sense here: raise the low trip points and make speed transition gradual. Oh, and get rid of the annoying beat pattern (a brief speed pulse every few seconds) it sometimes gets into!<br />
<br />
But from our perspective, what would probably be best is to do the whole thing in software, providing the flexibility for personal preferences and smart decisions. The hardware would only enforce emergency override or throttle/shutdown for extreme temperatures. Then we could do cute things like having a software daemon lower the thresholds in a noisy environment (as judged using the built-in microphone) or when the laptop is on the user's lap (as judged by the built-in accelometers).<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 18:47, 30 Sep 2005 (CEST)<br />
<br />
I noticed that on my T43 the fan is usually in one of two modes, low speed (around 3300 RPM, triggered around CPU=47deg) and medium speed (around 4100 RPM, can't figure out the trip condition). The former is nearly inaudible, but the latter is quite noticable in the absense of strong background noises.<br />
<br />
Now, the problem is that once it has tripped into medium speed, it usually never comes back to low speed until the next reboot. So once it happens, to quiet things down I can only run one of the fan-disabling scripts given here. But with a disabled fan the T43 is not thermally stable, so it will spend its time moving back and forth between the hysteresis thresholds, i.e., toggling between 4100 RPM and 0 RPM every few minutes. This is quite silly and annoying, when staying at low speed would be both more stable and more quiet.<br />
<br />
I hope someone will find a way to control the fan speed, or at least to reset the embedded controller's hysteresis state.<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 10:29, 6 Oct 2005 (CEST)<br />
<br />
When you do changes to e.g. the Energy Schema in Windows or you eject the Thinkpad of the Docking Station it seems that the controllers state is rest. At least on the X41 the fan does stop until it reaches the threshold to start some minutes later. So it should be doable. --85.124.171.70<br />
<br />
That's good. But just like a bunch of other functions (e.g., controlling the battery charge threshold), it probably uses low-level undocumented proprietary interfaces which are very hard to figure out without the help of IBM/Lenovo, who are in denial about the whole thing. --[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 01:40, 16 Oct 2005 (CEST)<br />
<br />
----<br />
<br />
== Works fine with APM instead of ACPI? ==<br />
<br />
On my X41 the fan starts after about 10 minutes of use and doesn't stop (until it is rather cold in my room - and even then it runs most of the time ;) A friend of mine who has a X41 too (though another model) and who does use NetBSD and APM doesn't experience this problem. He claims that the fan only comes up if the system is not idle. So either it is colder in his room, the X41 model which he has doesn't have this flaw or APM does use different tresholds than ACPI.<br />
<br />
* Then why not just try the {{bootparm|acpi|off}} kernel parameter and see what happens? --[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 18:14, 30 Sep 2005 (CEST)<br />
<br />
I currently don't have physical access to the X41. Will try in a few days.<br />
<br />
== Rewiring the fan? ==<br />
<br />
Since IBM/Lenovo shows no intention of fixing their embedded controller firmware or releasing its specs, how about getting the embedded controller out of the loop? I'd be happy as a clam if my fan was hard-wired to work at a constant 3000RPM, with temperatures kept at bay in software through CPU frequenty control.<br />
<br />
Assuming the fan has the standard 3-wire connector, we can probaby keep the sensor and ground wires untouched, and rewire the positive wire to some nearby current source of appropriate voltage (through a resistor, for fine-tuning). The trick would be to find an easily tappable source that can handle an extra 2W and has the appropriate voltage (i.e., just slightly higher than what the fan needs to rotate at that RPM, so we don't waste too much energy in the resistor). Any idea what are the typical fan voltages and what would be an appropriate hookup point?<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 01:59, 16 Oct 2005 (CEST)<br />
----<br />
<br />
== Secret sensor and the cause of fan always on ==<br />
<br />
On my {{T43}}, ecdump offsets 0xC0-0xC2 seem to include 3 more temperature sensors that are not seen in {{path|/proc/acpi/ibm/thermal}}:<br />
# cat /proc/acpi/ibm/thermal; <br />
temperatures: 44 41 33 42 33 -128 30 -128<br />
# perl -ne 'm/^EC 0xc0: .(..) .(..) .(..) / or next; print hex($1)." ".hex($2)." ".hex($3)."\n"' < /proc/acpi/ibm/ecdump<br />
40 48 43<br />
<br />
Note the "48" entry (EC offset 0xC1). Something's pretty hot even at full full speed (level 7, 4700RPM). This sensor increases very quickly when the system starts (in fact, faster than anything else when the CPU is undervolted and [[fglrx]] is in maximum powersaving).<br />
<br />
Now, note this: the fan kicks up from low speed to medium speed whenever this sensor reaches 46 degrees, even if no other sensor changes; and this seems to usually be the first trigger encountered. Moreover, this sensor hovers around 47-48 degrees even on an idle machine. Taken together, '''this fully explains the "fan always on" behavior: a previously-unnoticed sensor that's always hot.'''<br />
<br />
Any idea what this sensor is? It seems correlated with WiFi: there's a 2deg difference when I toggle {{path|/sys/bus/pci/drivers/ipw2200/*/rf_kill}} (without ever being associated so this shouldn't affect anything else), and heavy WiFi data transfer increases temperature by several more degrees. This suggests the sensor is located in or close to the mini-PCI slot (i.e., under the touchpad). That region is indeed often hot to the touch. But why would the mini-PCI slot get so hot? Could it be the southbridge, which sits under the mini-PCI slot with no heatsink and poor ventilation? Can anyone correlate this sensor other specific activity, or with blocking of specific ventilation holes, or with cooling of specific components? If it's the mini-PCI slot? The operating temperature of the Intel 2200BG is [ftp://download.intel.com/network/connectivity/resources/doc_library/tech_brief/2200bg_prodbrief.pdf 0-80 deg].<br />
<br />
Caveat: this is my experience with a {{T43}} after [[Pentium M undervolting and underclocking|undervolting]] the CPU and activating [[How to make use of Graphics Chips Power Management features|maximal GPU powersaving using fglrx]]. It could be that for other people, other components are the first to trigger. But either way, those are 3 temperature sensors we didn't know of and they're used by the Embedded Controller's algorithm.<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 16:20, 20 Nov 2005 (CET)<br />
----<br />
<br />
At the moment I am experimenting with controlling the fan on Windows XP with a self written tool on a {{T43}} (Model 2668 97G). Having found the information about the secret sensors here I built these into the program and it seems that after starting my cooled (placed outside) {{T43}} the 0xC1 sensor indeed rises fastest but also cools down quite quicky especially if also the CPU is cool. I have seen it hotter than the CPU but not much cooler, so probably it is a small chip connected to the colling element of the CPU.<br />
<br />
The values at 0xC0 and 0xC2 also seem to show temperature values here, while 0xC4 is always at 128.<br />
<br />
First experiments indicate that as long as all the temperature value are below 43°C the Thinkpad comes up with no fan and stays that way. (The fan control register at EC offset 0x2F set to 0x80, see the bottom of the [[patch for controlling fan speed]] page for a description of this register). If 43°C are reached on the 0xC1 sensor, the fan kicks in with low speed while 43°C on the CPU do not activate the fan. With regard to the CPU the kick-in seems to be around 48°C.<br />
<br />
Once the fan is on, it goes off again if all the seonsors drop to the area of 38°C or lower (the value may not be precise). But it hardly happens on it's own, for tests I placed it outside in cold weather.<br />
<br />
On [http://forum.thinkpads.com/ forums.thinkpad.com] is a ([http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=14580http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=14580 discussion]) from users who experimented with physically cooling the North- and Southbridge without success. In a different thread there a user claimed that he worked with a couple of Thinkpads and silenced them by turning off unused devices, WLAN being among them.<br />
<br />
With the XP WLAN device disabled the temperature on 0xC1 stays around 41°C here even if there is heavy activity on the CPU. It rises as soon as the WLAN device is enabled but hardly goes any hotter than 44°C. But I also could not make it go hot at all running on battery. And the heat reading there somehow more or less follows the value of the CPU.<br />
<br />
Bottom line on my {{T43}} (2668 97G): Fan kicks in for CPU around 48°C or 0xC1 at 43°C and then never goes off again unless you use external cooling. 0xC1 sensor could to be related to WLAN (I'm not really sure about it) and/or is probably placed near the CPU. It could also have something to do with running the machine no AC rather than battery.<br />
<br />
-- Shimdoax - 2005-11-27<br />
----<br />
<br />
Shimdoax, you said "''I have seen it hotter than the CPU but not much cooler, so probably it is a small chip connected to the colling element of the CPU''", but also "''the temperature on 0xC1 stays around 41°C here even if there is heavy activity on the CPU''". It follows that your CPU is never much hotter than 41°C, which I find unlikely... Anyway, on my T43, sensor 0cC1 is correlated with the CPU but very slightly; it is more correlated with the GPU, but not very much either.<br />
<br />
I suspect that sensor 0xC1 sits on the system board under the touchpad, since this is consistent with all of the following:<br />
* In idle with wireless off, sensor 0xC1 has roughly the same temperature as the GPU (which is adjacent on the system board, under the spacebar and TrackPoint buttons).<br />
* Correlation with the WLAN card activity (which is sandwiched between the system board and the touchpad).<br />
* Quick warm-up (the southbridge is also on the system board under the touchpad, and has no heat spreader).<br />
* Negligible effect of fan speed on 0xC1 temperature (the touchpad area is cramped and lacks decent ventilation, hence has negligible air flow).<br />
* When I place a 12cm-by-12cm pad of thick thermally isolating material (a folded fleece blanket...) under the touchpad, 0xC1 temperature consistently rises by 2-3 degrees (and cools back when I remove the pad); other sensors seem unaffected.<br />
<br />
If this is indeed the case, it's hard to see what can be done (other than using a fan control script with an increased threshold for this sensor). It looks like IBM/Lenovo counted on this area being passively cooled through the bottom of the case - see how the bottom of the laptop is designed to allow air flow under the front quarter? However, once the desk under the laptop has warmed up (or if air flow is blocked, as when the laptop is sitting on the top of a lap), things just cook up. The [http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=14580http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=14580 mods] which thermally connet the southbridge to the GPU cooling assembly might improve things a bit, but on my system sensor 0xC1 isn't much hotter than the GPU anyway. Maybe ventilation can be improved by letting in more air through the speaker grills on the front - does anyone know what things looks like, under the very front of the palmrest? This won't solve "fan always on" since it will help only when the fan is on, but it may let the fan run at a lower speed.<br />
<br />
BTW, Shimdoax, how are you monitoring/controlling the EC under Windows?<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 18:22, 27 Nov 2005 (CET)<br />
----<br />
<br />
Thinker,<br />
<br />
I currently don't know where to read the GPU temp from, so I can't say much about it (I'm running XP and have not found drivers or tools that would display the GPU).<br />
<br />
However, regarding my experiments: I had the machine on my desk earlier today (when I wrote the post) on AC with WLAN connection to the office network and "Max. Battery Life" Scheme. I had taken it from the trunk of the car (it's quite cold outside, around freezing). During the whole experiments the CPU hardly went higher than 46°C, most of the time it was around 39°C to 43°C. I wasn't very systematic in these tests, these were just first observations.<br />
<br />
However, I think I can confirm that the 43°C on the C1 triggers the fan on my machine here. 48°C to 50°C on the CPU also triggers the fan on. Then I put the laptop outside the window twice. Temperatures dropped quite quickly and around MAX(CPU, 0xC1) of 38°C the fan turned itself off.<br />
<br />
Further tests on the WLAN revealed mixed results about correlation. If the CPU goes up the C1 also goes up, even if WLAN is disabled. On the other hand I had cases where WLAN (big folder copy) made the C1 rise ahead of the CPU. The way I tested it, mostly the C1 triggered the fan before the CPU did. This at least explains why CPU undervolting/clocking doesn't help much.<br />
<br />
But I think you're right. Without custom scripts I guess it will be hard to keep the C1 below 43°C. This value may even be intentional by IBM. If it is really near the palmrest, higher values may cause burns (I once read about a guy who actually burnt his balls [no joke!] by working with a laptop which had a 42°C - 45°C battery temp. in his lap for an hour or two). So they may think that fan noise is preferrable to bad publicity.<br />
<br />
Hence I'm not counting on IBM. Instead I'm currently writing a custom fan control program for XP, that's how I read the EC there. I'll post a first version [http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=17715 here] later today. Maybe some folks from the hardware modding thread will help to locate the sensors with some cooling spray.<br />
<br />
-- Shimodax - 2005-11-27<br />
----<br />
<br />
Shimodax,<br />
<br />
Great to see work on a Windows solution, especially from Emtec! (Alas, I let my ZOC registration expire when I switched to Linux). Will you be releasing the source code? <br />
<br />
If the 0xC1 sensor is near the southbridge then it will be affected by CPU activity both because of related southbridge activity and by thermal conductance via the motherboard; but I've seen 0xC1 at 47deg and CPU at 59deg (after a long burn-in), so they can't be too close. About the palmrest, IBM actually brags about low palm rest temperature in some of their marketing publication. But ironically the hottest and worst-cooled area of the laptop (where I suspect 0xC1 sits) is in the bottom center right under the touchpad - which tends to coincide with certain anatomical regions... BTW, GPU temp is EC offset 0x7B; there a partial list inside my new fan control script at [[Talk:ACPI_fan_control_script]] (I'll move it to the article page soon).<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 23:20, 27 Nov 2005 (CET)<br />
----<br />
<br />
+LOL+ I wouldn't have expected that anybody would know me :-)<br />
<br />
Yes, I'll release source code soon. I took quite some pain in writing this tool without our proprietary classes and libs in order to be able to release the source (or at least maintain a basic Open Source version). I'll see if SourceForge accepts the project (applied on Saturday), otherwise I'll have find another place.<br />
<br />
Thanks for the info about the GPU ... <br />
<br />
Markus<br />
<br />
-- Shimodax - 23:42 (CET) - 2005-11-27<br />
----<br />
<br />
For the record: the new [http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?p=111974 "Shimodax fan control tool : sharing values"] topic at the thinkpads.com forums tracks some other users' experience with their sensor. So far the only new observation is that sensor 0x7A (3rd) is probably in the vicinity of the the CPU or northbridge.<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 12:53, 28 Nov 2005 (CET)<br />
----<br />
<br />
Just now I see the C2 higher than C1 and rest of the system for the first time. Only difference I can think of is the fact that the battery is loading. I hooked it on with 6% left about 30 minutes ago. Usage was mainly web broswing (firefox, maybe a webpage with animated gif ads). C2 triggered the fan at 50°C two times.<br />
<br />
CPU 42°C (0x78)<br />
APS 41°C (0x79)<br />
X7A 34°C (0x7A)<br />
GPU 44°C (0x7B)<br />
BAT 40°C (0x7C)<br />
BAT 31°C (0x7E)<br />
XC0 40°C (0xC0)<br />
XC1 46°C (0xC1)<br />
XC2 48°C (0xC2)<br />
<br />
-- Shimodax 00:17 CET - 2005-11-30<br />
----<br />
<br />
Upon further casual observation I would like to offer the theory that the C2 sensor is indeed related to battery loading and may be located rear/left (under the Esc/F1) on a T43. See: page 2 on [http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?p=111974 "Shimodax fan control tool : sharing values"]<br />
<br />
-- Shimodax 13:27 CET - 2005-12-01<br />
----<br />
<br />
I happen to have a photo of that area from the last time I opened my T43, and indeed it looks like there's some power circuitry there:<br />
<br />
[[Image:T43-2686-DGU-CDC.jpg|500px|T43 CDC]]<br />
<br />
Those two "150 A47L" are just above the ventilation grill. Any idea what they could be?<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 20:11, 1 Dec 2005 (CET)<br />
----<br />
<br />
Don't know ... they could look like power stabilizing transistors, but I have very little knowledge of electronic (especially of SMD circuits) so that's just wild guessing.<br />
<br />
Hoever, the system is currently loading battery again and I played with the fan. The C2 does react to the fan quite slowly and when I forced the fan off it rose no higher than 55°C. Also from touching the bottom of the laptop, I'd say the hottest part of that area is between the grill and the latch for the DRAM expansion (probably below the thing in the center of your photo).<br />
<br />
-- Shimodax 01:53 CET - 2005-12-02<br />
<br />
----<br />
<br />
Makes perfect sense. So 0xC2 sits under the CDC and monitors the power circuitry (not just battery charging, since it also heats up slightly above its environment without a battery). Then XC2->PWR, I guess. Two more to go: 0x7A and 0xC0 (both are nice and cool here).<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 03:35, 2 Dec 2005 (CET)<br />
----<br />
<br />
I'll then rename it in my tool with the next release. Btw, do you have any idea what the APS might be on other models?<br />
<br />
-- Shimodax 14:07 CET - 2005-12-03<br />
----<br />
<br />
It's easy to check if 0x79 is the HDAPS accelerometer or not: read the HDAPS temperature directly and compare. For getting the HDAPS temperature you can follow the Linux hdaps.c driver, or just reboot to Linux and look at {{path|/sys/bus/platform/drivers/hdaps/hdaps/temp1}} (and at {{path|/proc/acpi/ibm/thermal}} for the first 8 EC sensors). On my T43, the 0x79 always matches the HDAPS sensor (usually identical but sometimes 1 degree off, probably due to a different sampling time). BTW, my [[ACPI_fan_control_script#Variable_speed_control_scripts|ACPI fan control script]] monitors both, just in case.<br />
<br />
Speaking of which, the table at the top of that script reflects all knowledge gleaned from the forum.tinkpads.com discussion. Feel free to update it (maybe we should move it to a separate and more spacious page?).<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 15:03, 3 Dec 2005 (CET)<br />
----<br />
<br />
For another view of the 0xC2 area, including a peek under the CDC card, see IBM/Lenovo's [http://www-307.ibm.com/pc/support/site.wss/document.do?sitestyle=lenovo&lndocid=MIGR-51451 CDC removal movie]. There seems to be nothing very exciting visible on the upper side on the motherboard (but judging by the plastic buldge in the bottom of the case, there's probably some circuitry on the underside).<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 16:39, 3 Dec 2005 (CET)<br />
----<br />
I just had the idea that 0xC0 could be the Northbridge chip. See [http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?p=111974 "Shimodax fan control tool : sharing values"]<br />
<br />
-- Shimodax 23:15 CET - 2005-12-05<br />
----<br />
<br />
Yes, 0xC0 is very much correlated with CPU temperature. But if it's the northbrighe then it's surpsigingly cool, since northbridges usually run pretty hot, and the 815PM has a small surface area and no cooling assembly whatsoever, see here:<br />
<br />
[[Image:ThinkPad-T43-under-keyboard-left.jpg|500px|T43 systemboard]] (click to enlarge)<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 00:45, 5 Dec 2005 (CET)<br />
----<br />
Mmmh, I guess I'll remove the keyboard and play with some cooling spray. It seems that a good part of the inside area can be reached through the opening of the keyboard.<br />
<br />
-- Shimodax 23:15 CET - 2005-12-05<br />
<br />
-----<br />
Just in case - these [http://www-307.ibm.com/pc/support/site.wss/document.do?lndocid=MIGR-50233 instructions and movies] are pretty useful. It looks like the palmrest should be easy to remove too, but I didn't try that.<br />
<br />
Keep us posted :-)<br />
<br />
And please take plenty of photos! You never know what you'll want to look up later (as with those 0xC2 power chips above).<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 17:34, 6 Dec 2005 (CET)<br />
----<br />
Someone on a [http://thinkpad-forum.de/forum/viewtopic.php?p=29286#29286 German forum] reported that he saw pictures on an U.S. forum where someone said he located the 0xC1 with cooling spray. Seems indeed to be below the left of the touchpad on the mainboard (pictures on the forum article linked above)<br />
<br />
-- Shimodax 22:50 CET - 2005-12-06<br />
----<br />
Interesting. That's a T40, right? Similar layout but different cooling assembly. Anyway, the T40 didn't have HDAPS, but on the T43 the HDAPS accelerometer chip is just 1 or 2 centimeters down from the location of the chip marked here. And on the T43, sensor 0xC1 and direct HDAPS reads give very different results. So maybe they moved 0xC1 away on the T43? Or, maybe the temperatures read through by HDAPS driver actually come from a separate sensor located elsewhere (unlikely but possible).<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 01:05, 7 Dec 2005 (CET)<br />
----<br />
Yep, that was a T40. Well, I purchased a can of cooling spray today, probably will open the thing tonight or tomorrow. I guess for precise results I'll need to remove the bezel and the fan ... quite an adventure ;-). Will keep you posted of the results.<br />
<br />
-- Shimodax 2005-12-07</div>212.34.172.148https://www.thinkwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Problem_with_fan_noise&diff=12901Talk:Problem with fan noise2005-12-06T15:10:02Z<p>212.34.172.148: /* Secret sensor and the cause of fan always on */</p>
<hr />
<div>== Problem with fan noise on R51 1829 L7G (ATI M9) ==<br />
<br />
On my R51 the fan is behaving like this:<br />
<br />
* > 45C -> fan on;<br />
* < 38C -> fan off.<br />
<br />
By using cpufreq + laptop_mode + Xorg DynamicClocks + WiFi power management, I get the fan stopped time to time, but only for 3 minutes time (transition from 38 C -> 45 C). The cooling down cycle is taking 20 minutes in the best case.<br />
<br />
I knew about the 'ibm_acpi experimental=1' trick, but in my opinion this is not very useful since nobody can guarantee that a temperature greater then 45 C will not damage the laptop and in the same time the transition time is very short (the laptop gets hot fast without fan).<br />
<br />
== Thinkpad T42 Radeon Mobility M7 ==<br />
<br />
When Xorg is running, the fan is always on and pretty loud !<br />
Setting DynamicClocks does not help<br />
<br />
it's clear that the GPU is the problem on the thinkpad :<br />
<br />
after 10minutes with the fan off<br />
temperatures: 44 47 33 52 32 -128 24 -128<br />
<br />
1: CPU<br />
2: Mini PCI Module<br />
3: HDD<br />
4: GPU<br />
5: Battery<br />
6: N/A<br />
7: Battery<br />
8: N/A<br />
<br />
Controlling the fan speed would be really cool !<br />
<br />
What is the maximum temperature not to cross ?<br />
----<br />
Word on the 'net is that 85 degrees is the max operating temp for most of the Intel chips. I've seen some high 70's all the time (just put it on carpet for awhile and play some quake3 :). I wouldn't let your processor get much higher than 85...<br />
<br />
----<br />
Older versions of xorg (i.e. 6.7.0) don't seem to be able to use the DynamicClocks option although it's set in the xorg.conf. Search the log to find out if it's really used.<br />
<br />
== Thinkpad R32 with Radeon Mobility M6 ==<br />
<br />
Updating xorg-x11 from 6.7.0 to 6.8.2 and using Speedstep (with the ondemand module in this case) helped cooling the system down significantly:<br />
<br />
* before updating the CPU was ~62 C in idle state, and got very near the critical temperature (72 C) during heavy load - I even got some freezes because of the heat ;)<br />
* after the update the CPU is ~54 C in idle state, and still gets to about 68 C while under heavy load<br />
<br />
The second sensor (which may be the GPU) is somehow fixed to 50 C (maybe a bug?)<br />
<br />
The fan on the R32 is behaving like this:<br />
<br />
* > 61 -> fan in state 2 (quite noisy)<br />
* < 55 -> fan in state 1 (less noisy :) )<br />
<br />
But I remember using my old SuSE distribution with kernel 2.4.16, apm and some old x11 version the fan actually stopped completely from time to time.<br />
<br />
Concerning the maximum temperature of the CPU, I found that the critical temperature on the R32 for the CPU sensor is 72 C<br />
(using {{cmdroot|cat /proc/acpi/thermal_zone/THM0/trip_points }} )<br />
<br />
== Fan Control script: more safe version ==<br />
<br />
ibm_acpi works well on my R50 and R51. But to rely on it completely, I modified the script in two ways:<br />
<br />
1. It catches verious signals and turns the fan on before it quits<br />
<br />
2. It turns off the fan under very strict conditions, leaving it on when unexpected errors occur.<br />
<br />
Here is my script:<br />
<br />
#!/bin/sh<br />
<br />
# july 2005 Erik Groeneveld, erik@cq2.nl<br />
# More conservatiev and saver version<br />
# It make sure the fan is on in case of errors<br />
# and only turns it off when all temps are ok.<br />
<br />
IBM_ACPI=/proc/acpi/ibm<br />
THERMOMETER=$IBM_ACPI/thermal<br />
FAN=$IBM_ACPI/fan<br />
MAXTRIPPOINT=65<br />
MINTRIPPOINT=60<br />
TRIPPOINT=$MINTRIPPOINT<br />
<br />
echo fancontrol: Thermometer: $THERMOMETER, Fan: $FAN<br />
echo fancontrol: Current `cat $THERMOMETER`<br />
echo fancontrol: Controlling temperatures between $MINTRIPPOINT and $MAXTRIPPOINT degrees.<br />
<br />
# Make sure the fan is turned on when the script crashes or is killed<br />
trap "echo enable > $FAN; exit 0" HUP KILL INT ABRT STOP QUIT SEGV TERM<br />
<br />
while [ 1 ];<br />
do<br />
command=enable<br />
temperatures=`sed s/temperatures:// < $THERMOMETER`<br />
result=<br />
for temp in $temperatures<br />
do<br />
test $temp -le $TRIPPOINT && result=$result.Ok<br />
done<br />
if [ "$result" = ".Ok.Ok.Ok.Ok.Ok.Ok.Ok.Ok" ]; then<br />
command=disable<br />
TRIPPOINT=$MAXTRIPPOINT<br />
else<br />
command=enable<br />
TRIPPOINT=$MINTRIPPOINT<br />
fi<br />
echo $command > $FAN<br />
# Temperature ramps up quickly, so pick this not too large:<br />
sleep 5<br />
done<br />
<br />
----<br />
I added this script to the other ones. Don't wander about my talk edits, i didn't realize i was on the talk page. [[User:Wyrfel|Wyrfel]] 01:48, 13 Aug 2005 (CEST)<br />
----<br />
<br />
== X41 ==<br />
<br />
Same fan problem here on the X41. Once it starts it won't stop (unless it is _very_ cold outside). Undervolting the CPU doesn't help - still the same problem.<br />
<br />
== Fan speed control? ==<br />
<br />
Only the X31 and X40 have an ACPI method for controlling the FAN speed (this is why ibm_acpi provides this functionality just for these models).<br />
<br />
What will happen if we take the "FANS" method from the [http://acpi.sourceforge.net/dsdt/view.php?id=219 X40 DSDT], paste it into a iasl-disassembled DSDT of (say) a T43, recompile it and [http://gaugusch.at/kernel.shtml tell the kernel] to use the patched DSDT? ibm_acpi will present the functionality, but it may or may not work.<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 16:16, 28 Sep 2005 (CEST)<br />
<br />
Any risk of damaging the hardware when doing this? E.g. what does occur if the system overheats - will the CPU be destroyed are does it automatically switch of? As I've just bought a new X41 I don't want to take any stupid risks - but otherwise I'd say let's try it out.<br />
<br />
--gst Thu Sep 29 18:14:13 CEST 2005<br />
<br />
I think Intel CPUs have some built-in thermal protection, but I'd hate to test it. And of course, any fiddling with the hardware at this level might damage it. That said, when the CPU is mostly idle it keeps a reasonable temperature even when the fan is disabled, so as long as you keep an eye on both the CPU usage meter and /proc/acpi/ibm/thermal, things should be pretty safe temperature-wise. For extra safety you can force the CPU to its lowest speed via {{path|/sys/devices/system/cpu/cpu0/cpufreq/scaling_max_freq}}.<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 18:33, 29 Sep 2005 (CEST)<br />
<br />
== Further discussion ==<br />
<br />
I've just found a very interesting thread regarding the same issue on HP notebooks. IMO it provides many insight information about heat/fan problems in general, the URL is: http://forums1.itrc.hp.com/service/forums/questionanswer.do?threadId=853249<br />
Especially the posts by the HP engineer "Andy Fisher" are very interesting. IBM should be able to provide the same BIOS fix as HP did (maybe I should have bought an HP notebook instead of a Thinkpad?).<br />
<br />
I've also contacted IBM/Lenovo support via the website about the fan issue. Maybe it helps when others do this as well (especially people who bought larger quantities) so that this issue is taken serious by Lenovo. Is there already any official response to this problem?<br />
<br />
--gst Thu Sep 29 19:40:34 CEST 2005<br />
----<br />
<br />
Two of the changes mentioned by the HP engineer make perfect sense here: raise the low trip points and make speed transition gradual. Oh, and get rid of the annoying beat pattern (a brief speed pulse every few seconds) it sometimes gets into!<br />
<br />
But from our perspective, what would probably be best is to do the whole thing in software, providing the flexibility for personal preferences and smart decisions. The hardware would only enforce emergency override or throttle/shutdown for extreme temperatures. Then we could do cute things like having a software daemon lower the thresholds in a noisy environment (as judged using the built-in microphone) or when the laptop is on the user's lap (as judged by the built-in accelometers).<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 18:47, 30 Sep 2005 (CEST)<br />
<br />
I noticed that on my T43 the fan is usually in one of two modes, low speed (around 3300 RPM, triggered around CPU=47deg) and medium speed (around 4100 RPM, can't figure out the trip condition). The former is nearly inaudible, but the latter is quite noticable in the absense of strong background noises.<br />
<br />
Now, the problem is that once it has tripped into medium speed, it usually never comes back to low speed until the next reboot. So once it happens, to quiet things down I can only run one of the fan-disabling scripts given here. But with a disabled fan the T43 is not thermally stable, so it will spend its time moving back and forth between the hysteresis thresholds, i.e., toggling between 4100 RPM and 0 RPM every few minutes. This is quite silly and annoying, when staying at low speed would be both more stable and more quiet.<br />
<br />
I hope someone will find a way to control the fan speed, or at least to reset the embedded controller's hysteresis state.<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 10:29, 6 Oct 2005 (CEST)<br />
<br />
When you do changes to e.g. the Energy Schema in Windows or you eject the Thinkpad of the Docking Station it seems that the controllers state is rest. At least on the X41 the fan does stop until it reaches the threshold to start some minutes later. So it should be doable. --85.124.171.70<br />
<br />
That's good. But just like a bunch of other functions (e.g., controlling the battery charge threshold), it probably uses low-level undocumented proprietary interfaces which are very hard to figure out without the help of IBM/Lenovo, who are in denial about the whole thing. --[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 01:40, 16 Oct 2005 (CEST)<br />
<br />
----<br />
<br />
== Works fine with APM instead of ACPI? ==<br />
<br />
On my X41 the fan starts after about 10 minutes of use and doesn't stop (until it is rather cold in my room - and even then it runs most of the time ;) A friend of mine who has a X41 too (though another model) and who does use NetBSD and APM doesn't experience this problem. He claims that the fan only comes up if the system is not idle. So either it is colder in his room, the X41 model which he has doesn't have this flaw or APM does use different tresholds than ACPI.<br />
<br />
* Then why not just try the {{bootparm|acpi|off}} kernel parameter and see what happens? --[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 18:14, 30 Sep 2005 (CEST)<br />
<br />
I currently don't have physical access to the X41. Will try in a few days.<br />
<br />
== Rewiring the fan? ==<br />
<br />
Since IBM/Lenovo shows no intention of fixing their embedded controller firmware or releasing its specs, how about getting the embedded controller out of the loop? I'd be happy as a clam if my fan was hard-wired to work at a constant 3000RPM, with temperatures kept at bay in software through CPU frequenty control.<br />
<br />
Assuming the fan has the standard 3-wire connector, we can probaby keep the sensor and ground wires untouched, and rewire the positive wire to some nearby current source of appropriate voltage (through a resistor, for fine-tuning). The trick would be to find an easily tappable source that can handle an extra 2W and has the appropriate voltage (i.e., just slightly higher than what the fan needs to rotate at that RPM, so we don't waste too much energy in the resistor). Any idea what are the typical fan voltages and what would be an appropriate hookup point?<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 01:59, 16 Oct 2005 (CEST)<br />
----<br />
<br />
== Secret sensor and the cause of fan always on ==<br />
<br />
On my {{T43}}, ecdump offsets 0xC0-0xC2 seem to include 3 more temperature sensors that are not seen in {{path|/proc/acpi/ibm/thermal}}:<br />
# cat /proc/acpi/ibm/thermal; <br />
temperatures: 44 41 33 42 33 -128 30 -128<br />
# perl -ne 'm/^EC 0xc0: .(..) .(..) .(..) / or next; print hex($1)." ".hex($2)." ".hex($3)."\n"' < /proc/acpi/ibm/ecdump<br />
40 48 43<br />
<br />
Note the "48" entry (EC offset 0xC1). Something's pretty hot even at full full speed (level 7, 4700RPM). This sensor increases very quickly when the system starts (in fact, faster than anything else when the CPU is undervolted and [[fglrx]] is in maximum powersaving).<br />
<br />
Now, note this: the fan kicks up from low speed to medium speed whenever this sensor reaches 46 degrees, even if no other sensor changes; and this seems to usually be the first trigger encountered. Moreover, this sensor hovers around 47-48 degrees even on an idle machine. Taken together, '''this fully explains the "fan always on" behavior: a previously-unnoticed sensor that's always hot.'''<br />
<br />
Any idea what this sensor is? It seems correlated with WiFi: there's a 2deg difference when I toggle {{path|/sys/bus/pci/drivers/ipw2200/*/rf_kill}} (without ever being associated so this shouldn't affect anything else), and heavy WiFi data transfer increases temperature by several more degrees. This suggests the sensor is located in or close to the mini-PCI slot (i.e., under the touchpad). That region is indeed often hot to the touch. But why would the mini-PCI slot get so hot? Could it be the southbridge, which sits under the mini-PCI slot with no heatsink and poor ventilation? Can anyone correlate this sensor other specific activity, or with blocking of specific ventilation holes, or with cooling of specific components? If it's the mini-PCI slot? The operating temperature of the Intel 2200BG is [ftp://download.intel.com/network/connectivity/resources/doc_library/tech_brief/2200bg_prodbrief.pdf 0-80 deg].<br />
<br />
Caveat: this is my experience with a {{T43}} after [[Pentium M undervolting and underclocking|undervolting]] the CPU and activating [[How to make use of Graphics Chips Power Management features|maximal GPU powersaving using fglrx]]. It could be that for other people, other components are the first to trigger. But either way, those are 3 temperature sensors we didn't know of and they're used by the Embedded Controller's algorithm.<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 16:20, 20 Nov 2005 (CET)<br />
----<br />
<br />
At the moment I am experimenting with controlling the fan on Windows XP with a self written tool on a {{T43}} (Model 2668 97G). Having found the information about the secret sensors here I built these into the program and it seems that after starting my cooled (placed outside) {{T43}} the 0xC1 sensor indeed rises fastest but also cools down quite quicky especially if also the CPU is cool. I have seen it hotter than the CPU but not much cooler, so probably it is a small chip connected to the colling element of the CPU.<br />
<br />
The values at 0xC0 and 0xC2 also seem to show temperature values here, while 0xC4 is always at 128.<br />
<br />
First experiments indicate that as long as all the temperature value are below 43°C the Thinkpad comes up with no fan and stays that way. (The fan control register at EC offset 0x2F set to 0x80, see the bottom of the [[patch for controlling fan speed]] page for a description of this register). If 43°C are reached on the 0xC1 sensor, the fan kicks in with low speed while 43°C on the CPU do not activate the fan. With regard to the CPU the kick-in seems to be around 48°C.<br />
<br />
Once the fan is on, it goes off again if all the seonsors drop to the area of 38°C or lower (the value may not be precise). But it hardly happens on it's own, for tests I placed it outside in cold weather.<br />
<br />
On [http://forum.thinkpads.com/ forums.thinkpad.com] is a ([http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=14580http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=14580 discussion]) from users who experimented with physically cooling the North- and Southbridge without success. In a different thread there a user claimed that he worked with a couple of Thinkpads and silenced them by turning off unused devices, WLAN being among them.<br />
<br />
With the XP WLAN device disabled the temperature on 0xC1 stays around 41°C here even if there is heavy activity on the CPU. It rises as soon as the WLAN device is enabled but hardly goes any hotter than 44°C. But I also could not make it go hot at all running on battery. And the heat reading there somehow more or less follows the value of the CPU.<br />
<br />
Bottom line on my {{T43}} (2668 97G): Fan kicks in for CPU around 48°C or 0xC1 at 43°C and then never goes off again unless you use external cooling. 0xC1 sensor could to be related to WLAN (I'm not really sure about it) and/or is probably placed near the CPU. It could also have something to do with running the machine no AC rather than battery.<br />
<br />
-- Shimdoax - 2005-11-27<br />
----<br />
<br />
Shimdoax, you said "''I have seen it hotter than the CPU but not much cooler, so probably it is a small chip connected to the colling element of the CPU''", but also "''the temperature on 0xC1 stays around 41°C here even if there is heavy activity on the CPU''". It follows that your CPU is never much hotter than 41°C, which I find unlikely... Anyway, on my T43, sensor 0cC1 is correlated with the CPU but very slightly; it is more correlated with the GPU, but not very much either.<br />
<br />
I suspect that sensor 0xC1 sits on the system board under the touchpad, since this is consistent with all of the following:<br />
* In idle with wireless off, sensor 0xC1 has roughly the same temperature as the GPU (which is adjacent on the system board, under the spacebar and TrackPoint buttons).<br />
* Correlation with the WLAN card activity (which is sandwiched between the system board and the touchpad).<br />
* Quick warm-up (the southbridge is also on the system board under the touchpad, and has no heat spreader).<br />
* Negligible effect of fan speed on 0xC1 temperature (the touchpad area is cramped and lacks decent ventilation, hence has negligible air flow).<br />
* When I place a 12cm-by-12cm pad of thick thermally isolating material (a folded fleece blanket...) under the touchpad, 0xC1 temperature consistently rises by 2-3 degrees (and cools back when I remove the pad); other sensors seem unaffected.<br />
<br />
If this is indeed the case, it's hard to see what can be done (other than using a fan control script with an increased threshold for this sensor). It looks like IBM/Lenovo counted on this area being passively cooled through the bottom of the case - see how the bottom of the laptop is designed to allow air flow under the front quarter? However, once the desk under the laptop has warmed up (or if air flow is blocked, as when the laptop is sitting on the top of a lap), things just cook up. The [http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=14580http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=14580 mods] which thermally connet the southbridge to the GPU cooling assembly might improve things a bit, but on my system sensor 0xC1 isn't much hotter than the GPU anyway. Maybe ventilation can be improved by letting in more air through the speaker grills on the front - does anyone know what things looks like, under the very front of the palmrest? This won't solve "fan always on" since it will help only when the fan is on, but it may let the fan run at a lower speed.<br />
<br />
BTW, Shimdoax, how are you monitoring/controlling the EC under Windows?<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 18:22, 27 Nov 2005 (CET)<br />
----<br />
<br />
Thinker,<br />
<br />
I currently don't know where to read the GPU temp from, so I can't say much about it (I'm running XP and have not found drivers or tools that would display the GPU).<br />
<br />
However, regarding my experiments: I had the machine on my desk earlier today (when I wrote the post) on AC with WLAN connection to the office network and "Max. Battery Life" Scheme. I had taken it from the trunk of the car (it's quite cold outside, around freezing). During the whole experiments the CPU hardly went higher than 46°C, most of the time it was around 39°C to 43°C. I wasn't very systematic in these tests, these were just first observations.<br />
<br />
However, I think I can confirm that the 43°C on the C1 triggers the fan on my machine here. 48°C to 50°C on the CPU also triggers the fan on. Then I put the laptop outside the window twice. Temperatures dropped quite quickly and around MAX(CPU, 0xC1) of 38°C the fan turned itself off.<br />
<br />
Further tests on the WLAN revealed mixed results about correlation. If the CPU goes up the C1 also goes up, even if WLAN is disabled. On the other hand I had cases where WLAN (big folder copy) made the C1 rise ahead of the CPU. The way I tested it, mostly the C1 triggered the fan before the CPU did. This at least explains why CPU undervolting/clocking doesn't help much.<br />
<br />
But I think you're right. Without custom scripts I guess it will be hard to keep the C1 below 43°C. This value may even be intentional by IBM. If it is really near the palmrest, higher values may cause burns (I once read about a guy who actually burnt his balls [no joke!] by working with a laptop which had a 42°C - 45°C battery temp. in his lap for an hour or two). So they may think that fan noise is preferrable to bad publicity.<br />
<br />
Hence I'm not counting on IBM. Instead I'm currently writing a custom fan control program for XP, that's how I read the EC there. I'll post a first version [http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=17715 here] later today. Maybe some folks from the hardware modding thread will help to locate the sensors with some cooling spray.<br />
<br />
-- Shimodax - 2005-11-27<br />
----<br />
<br />
Shimodax,<br />
<br />
Great to see work on a Windows solution, especially from Emtec! (Alas, I let my ZOC registration expire when I switched to Linux). Will you be releasing the source code? <br />
<br />
If the 0xC1 sensor is near the southbridge then it will be affected by CPU activity both because of related southbridge activity and by thermal conductance via the motherboard; but I've seen 0xC1 at 47deg and CPU at 59deg (after a long burn-in), so they can't be too close. About the palmrest, IBM actually brags about low palm rest temperature in some of their marketing publication. But ironically the hottest and worst-cooled area of the laptop (where I suspect 0xC1 sits) is in the bottom center right under the touchpad - which tends to coincide with certain anatomical regions... BTW, GPU temp is EC offset 0x7B; there a partial list inside my new fan control script at [[Talk:ACPI_fan_control_script]] (I'll move it to the article page soon).<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 23:20, 27 Nov 2005 (CET)<br />
----<br />
<br />
+LOL+ I wouldn't have expected that anybody would know me :-)<br />
<br />
Yes, I'll release source code soon. I took quite some pain in writing this tool without our proprietary classes and libs in order to be able to release the source (or at least maintain a basic Open Source version). I'll see if SourceForge accepts the project (applied on Saturday), otherwise I'll have find another place.<br />
<br />
Thanks for the info about the GPU ... <br />
<br />
Markus<br />
<br />
-- Shimodax - 23:42 (CET) - 2005-11-27<br />
----<br />
<br />
For the record: the new [http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?p=111974 "Shimodax fan control tool : sharing values"] topic at the thinkpads.com forums tracks some other users' experience with their sensor. So far the only new observation is that sensor 0x7A (3rd) is probably in the vicinity of the the CPU or northbridge.<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 12:53, 28 Nov 2005 (CET)<br />
----<br />
<br />
Just now I see the C2 higher than C1 and rest of the system for the first time. Only difference I can think of is the fact that the battery is loading. I hooked it on with 6% left about 30 minutes ago. Usage was mainly web broswing (firefox, maybe a webpage with animated gif ads). C2 triggered the fan at 50°C two times.<br />
<br />
CPU 42°C (0x78)<br />
APS 41°C (0x79)<br />
X7A 34°C (0x7A)<br />
GPU 44°C (0x7B)<br />
BAT 40°C (0x7C)<br />
BAT 31°C (0x7E)<br />
XC0 40°C (0xC0)<br />
XC1 46°C (0xC1)<br />
XC2 48°C (0xC2)<br />
<br />
-- Shimodax 00:17 CET - 2005-11-30<br />
----<br />
<br />
Upon further casual observation I would like to offer the theory that the C2 sensor is indeed related to battery loading and may be located rear/left (under the Esc/F1) on a T43. See: page 2 on [http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?p=111974 "Shimodax fan control tool : sharing values"]<br />
<br />
-- Shimodax 13:27 CET - 2005-12-01<br />
----<br />
<br />
I happen to have a photo of that area from the last time I opened my T43, and indeed it looks like there's some power circuitry there:<br />
<br />
[[Image:T43-2686-DGU-CDC.jpg|500px|T43 CDC]]<br />
<br />
Those two "150 A47L" are just above the ventilation grill. Any idea what they could be?<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 20:11, 1 Dec 2005 (CET)<br />
----<br />
<br />
Don't know ... they could look like power stabilizing transistors, but I have very little knowledge of electronic (especially of SMD circuits) so that's just wild guessing.<br />
<br />
Hoever, the system is currently loading battery again and I played with the fan. The C2 does react to the fan quite slowly and when I forced the fan off it rose no higher than 55°C. Also from touching the bottom of the laptop, I'd say the hottest part of that area is between the grill and the latch for the DRAM expansion (probably below the thing in the center of your photo).<br />
<br />
-- Shimodax 01:53 CET - 2005-12-02<br />
<br />
----<br />
<br />
Makes perfect sense. So 0xC2 sits under the CDC and monitors the power circuitry (not just battery charging, since it also heats up slightly above its environment without a battery). Then XC2->PWR, I guess. Two more to go: 0x7A and 0xC0 (both are nice and cool here).<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 03:35, 2 Dec 2005 (CET)<br />
----<br />
<br />
I'll then rename it in my tool with the next release. Btw, do you have any idea what the APS might be on other models?<br />
<br />
-- Shimodax 14:07 CET - 2005-12-03<br />
----<br />
<br />
It's easy to check if 0x79 is the HDAPS accelerometer or not: read the HDAPS temperature directly and compare. For getting the HDAPS temperature you can follow the Linux hdaps.c driver, or just reboot to Linux and look at {{path|/sys/bus/platform/drivers/hdaps/hdaps/temp1}} (and at {{path|/proc/acpi/ibm/thermal}} for the first 8 EC sensors). On my T43, the 0x79 always matches the HDAPS sensor (usually identical but sometimes 1 degree off, probably due to a different sampling time). BTW, my [[ACPI_fan_control_script#Variable_speed_control_scripts|ACPI fan control script]] monitors both, just in case.<br />
<br />
Speaking of which, the table at the top of that script reflects all knowledge gleaned from the forum.tinkpads.com discussion. Feel free to update it (maybe we should move it to a separate and more spacious page?).<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 15:03, 3 Dec 2005 (CET)<br />
----<br />
<br />
For another view of the 0xC2 area, including a peek under the CDC card, see IBM/Lenovo's [http://www-307.ibm.com/pc/support/site.wss/document.do?sitestyle=lenovo&lndocid=MIGR-51451 CDC removal movie]. There seems to be nothing very exciting visible on the upper side on the motherboard (but judging by the plastic buldge in the bottom of the case, there's probably some circuitry on the underside).<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 16:39, 3 Dec 2005 (CET)<br />
----<br />
I just had the idea that 0xC0 could be the Northbridge chip. See [http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?p=111974 "Shimodax fan control tool : sharing values"]<br />
<br />
-- Shimodax 23:15 CET - 2005-12-05<br />
----<br />
<br />
Yes, 0xC0 is very much correlated with CPU temperature. But if it's the northbrighe then it's surpsigingly cool, since northbridges usually run pretty hot, and the 815PM has a small surface area and no cooling assembly whatsoever, see here:<br />
<br />
[[Image:ThinkPad-T43-under-keyboard-left.jpg|500px|T43 systemboard]] (click to enlarge)<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 00:45, 5 Dec 2005 (CET)<br />
----<br />
Mmmh, I guess I'll remove the keyboard and play with some cooling spray. It seems that a good part of the inside area can be reached through the opening of the keyboard.<br />
<br />
-- Shimodax 23:15 CET - 2005-12-05</div>212.34.172.148https://www.thinkwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Problem_with_fan_noise&diff=13058Problem with fan noise2005-12-05T16:25:41Z<p>212.34.172.148: /* Windows fix */</p>
<hr />
<div>Information about the fan noise problem in Thinkpad models from 2003/2004/2005.<br />
<br />
==Problem description==<br />
<br />
There seem to be two different occurances of the problem (or two different <br />
<br />
===Acceleration (pulsing) problem:===<br />
The Thinkpad fan briefly accelerates in regular intervals every few seconds, causing an annoying periodic pulse noise.<br />
<br />
See [http://lophiomys.gmxhome.de/Thinkpad_R50_Periodic_Fan_Noise.html here] for audio recordings of this noise on ThinkPad {{R50}} and {{R51}}.<br />
<br />
===Always-on problem:===<br />
The Fan is always on, even though the processor is rather cool.<br />
<br />
==Affected Models==<br />
<br />
===Acceleration (pulsing) problem:===<br />
*ThinkPad {{600E}}<br />
*ThinkPad {{R40}}<br />
*ThinkPad {{T40}}, {{T40p}}, {{T41}}, {{T42}}(?), {{T43}}<br />
<br />
===Always-on problem:===<br />
*ThinkPad {{600X}}<br />
*ThinkPad {{770X}}<br />
*ThinkPad {{A31p}}<br />
*ThinkPad {{R32}}, {{R50}}, {{R50p}}, {{R51}}, {{R52}}<br />
*ThinkPad {{T40}}, {{T40p}}, {{T41}}, {{T41p}}, {{T42}}, {{T42p}}, {{T43}}, {{T43p}}<br />
*ThinkPad {{X32}}, {{X40}}, {{X41}}<br />
<br />
==Affected Operating Systems==<br />
<br />
===Acceleration (pulsing) problem:===<br />
*Linux, all flavours<br />
<br />
===Always-on problem:===<br />
*Linux, all flavours<br />
*FreeBSD 5.3<br />
*OpenBSD 3.7 (Tested with X40)<br />
*Windows XP<br />
*Windows 2000 pro<br />
<br />
==Status==<br />
<br />
===Acceleration (pulsing) problem:===<br />
The pulsing seems to be triggered by the embedded controller when it monitors the fan speed and adjusts the fan control accordingly every few seconds.<br />
<br />
For some models, IBM released an update to the embedded controller program that seems to at least partially solve this problem:<br />
<br />
Version 3.03 - 1RHT70WW<br />
NOTE: This version of Embedded Controller Program will only work with BIOS Version 3.06f (or higher).<br />
* (Fix) Reduced Fan noise in some models.<br />
<br />
The update can be found here: http://www-306.ibm.com/pc/support/site.wss/document.do?lndocid=MIGR-50279<br />
<br />
For other models (e.g., ThinkPad {{T43}}), there is a software workaround (see below).<br />
<br />
===Always-on problem:===<br />
The problem is yet unsolved. But see the partial fix below.<br />
<br />
IBM made a statement regarding this on their homepage:<br />
http://www-307.ibm.com/pc/support/site.wss/MIGR-56504.html<br />
<br />
<br />
==Solutions==<br />
<br />
===Acceleration problem:===<br />
<br />
====Replacing the fan====<br />
Some people reported that they replaced the original fan against one of a similar notebook without the problem has worked for them, i.e. changing a {{T41}}s fan against one from a {{T41p}}.<br />
<br />
====BIOS upgrade====<br />
For relevant models, you can try upgrading your embedded controller program to version 3.03 or newer.<br />
The update can be found here: http://www-306.ibm.com/pc/support/site.wss/document.do?lndocid=MIGR-50279<br />
<br />
Also, in late November 2005 IBM released a BIOS and embedded controller update (BIOS 1.24, EC 1.04) for the T43/p<br />
(Machine types 2668, 2669, 2678, 2679, 2686, 2687). Reported results are not consistent and range from cooler sensor readings (some sensors seem to report lower temperatures with this patch), less fan pulsing (also only reported by some users), and slightly different fan behaviour.<br />
The link to this update is: http://www-306.ibm.com/pc/support/site.wss/document.do?sitestyle=ibm&lndocid=MIGR-58597#bios<br />
<br />
====Software workaround====<br />
The problem can be solved through appropriate modulation of the embedded controller, using an [[ACPI fan control script#Variable speed control scripts|ACPI fan control script]].<br />
<br />
===Always on problem:===<br />
<br />
Generally, this problem is triggered by heating due to high power consumption. See [[How to reduce power consumption]].<br />
<br />
<br />
It seems like for some people a combination of enabling dynamic frequency scaling and using the most recent radeon drivers (from xorg 6.8.x) with the DynamicClocks option enabled helped lowing the fan rotation and hence making it more quiet.<br />
<br />
Also the fglrx driver from ATI is said to show the same effect when used together with dynamic frequency scaling.<br />
<br />
On a 770X the fan can be fully controlled through ACPI. Thermal Zone THM5 (possibly the battery/charging circuit, it's definitely warmer when using 5v PCMCIA cards and AC) triggers it to turn on and not ever off by design. Can be solved by a custom DSDT, which also makes use of the variable-speed features of the fan (will release this once I've finished tweaking and testing it).<br />
<br />
I can confirm that on my R51, the graphics card seems to be the problem. The fan keeps running most of the time even with AC on, but even though I activated DynamicClocks (with the radeon driver), I can see in /proc/acpi/ibm/thermal that the GPU (4th value) is at 52-53°. The fan stops running as soon as the temperature gets down to 50 degrees and starts again at 53. While debugging, I seemed(!) to be able to reduce the temperature together with the resolution (e.g. "xrandr -s 2" to get from 1400x1050 to 1024x768) or by switching off the graphics with "xset dpms force off". The bottom line is that the below "partial fix" won't work because the GPU temperature is the problem.<br />
<br />
The GPU also seems to be the culprit on the t43p. Even with the fan always on (with speeds of around 4K reported in /proc/acpi/ibm/fan), the temperature never drops below 55. This is with the Xorg driver and DynamicClocks=on. With the ATI's fglrx driver, the GPU temp seems slightly higher (although I haven't performed a careful comparison). Without the fan, the temperature very quickly climbs to above 60. <br />
<br />
With the Pentium M, CPU heat dissipation can be reduced through [[Pentium M undervolting and underclocking|undervolting and underclocking]].<br />
<br />
In regard to the technical side of controlling the fan, see [[patch for controlling fan speed]] for a description of the embedded controller byte at offset 0x2F which controls the fan activity (T4X series and other later models). In addition to these in the discussion to this topic [http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/Talk:Problem_with_fan_noise] a user observed hidden temperature sensors. In the ACPI DSDT dump a {{T43}} reports 8 temp values at offset 0x78 (some of which may be off and yield a constant value of 0x80), but there are at least three more values at offset 0xC0 which from observation seem to show temperatures as well. One of these sensors (0xC1) is most likely in the area of the mini PCI slot (related to WLAN activity) and seem to trigger the fan at 43°C ({{T43}}, Windows XP). Another one (0xC2) seems to be located below the power supply (rear left, in the area under the Esc, F1-F3 keys). This one noticeably increases when the battery is charged. Both, the 0xC1 and 0xC2 react quite slowly to fan activity.<br />
<br />
An extensive forum discussion of this problem for the ThinkPad {{T43}}/{{T43p}}, and possible hardware mods for thermal enhancement, appear [http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=14580http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=14580 here]. There users who had opened the machine reported uncooled Northbridge and Southbrige chips, having no physical connectino to the heat pipe. Building a hardware copper bridge to these did change the temperature characteristics but did not cure the "always on" problem. In an other discussion on that forum a user said that amongh other areas the WLAN chip may be responsible for generating extra heat and that disabling WLAN (among other unused devices) may help. <br />
<br />
====Partial fix====<br />
{{WARN|This circumvents the BIOS fan control, so be careful and use at your own risk! Don't toast your ThinkPad.}}<br />
<br />
When loading [[ibm-acpi]] v0.11 with experimental switch ({{cmdroot|1=modprobe ibm_acpi experimental=1}}), it is possible to read and write the status of fan:<br />
<br />
'''#cat /proc/acpi/ibm/fan'''<br />
status: enabled<br />
speed: 3580<br />
commands: enable, disable<br />
<br />
'''#echo disable > /proc/acpi/ibm/fan'''<br />
<br />
'''cat /proc/acpi/ibm/fan'''<br />
status: disabled<br />
speed: 0<br />
commands: enable, disable<br />
<br />
But the fan will then '''never''' wake up. So, we need a [[ACPI fan control script|small script]] witch is constantly checking the temperature and setting the fan on/off when needed.<br />
<br />
On my T41 (gentoo-sources-2.6.11.11 ) I noticed that after unloading the fan module the fan noise stopped. With the module loaded the fan was working even at very low cpu temperatures, without the module it's ok so far.<br />
<br />
====Improved partial fix====<br />
<br />
Some models allow for fine control of fan speed. Under Linux, an [[ACPI fan control script#Variable speed control scripts|ACPI fan control script]] can thus be used to override the firmware's fan algorithm with gentler version. <br />
<br />
Manual control can be done through the [[patch for controlling fan speed]], or even just with [[ibm-acpi]] (see instructions in the former):<br />
<br />
'''#cat /proc/acpi/ibm/fan'''<br />
status: enabled<br />
level: auto<br />
speed: 4219<br />
commands: enable, disable, level <level><br />
(<level> is 0-7, auto or disengaged)<br />
<br />
'''#echo level 2 > /proc/acpi/ibm/fan'''<br />
<br />
'''#cat /proc/acpi/ibm/fan'''<br />
status: enabled<br />
level: 2<br />
speed: 3142<br />
commands: enable, disable, level <level><br />
(<level> is 0-7, auto or disengaged)<br />
<br />
====Windows fix====<br />
<br />
Under Windows, Shimodax's ThinkPad fan control tool offers similar functionality (see [http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=17715 forum discussion] at thinkpads.com). Source and binaries are available through the [https://sourceforge.net/projects/tp4xfancontrol/ "Tp4xFanFontrol"] project on SourceForge.<br />
<br />
====Cleaning the fan====<br />
<br />
If your ThinkPad is old or has been exposed to dusty environment, it is possible that accumulated dirt on the fan and the heatsink cause abnormal behavior (though the problems have also been reported for brand new units). You can use a combination of a vacuum cleaner and an air dusting spray to clean things up from the outside. Bigger agglomerations of dust may require removing by tweezers through the openings in the fan grill. Getting to the fan itself from the inside is quite tricky and may require removing the LCD.<br />
<br />
After you clean things up, power on your ThinkPad. You should hear the fan start up for a bit when booting. If it does not, this means that the cleaning procedure has actually blocked the fan and your computer will overheat at some point (BIOS POST test does not appear to catch obstructed fans). Keep cleaning.</div>212.34.172.148https://www.thinkwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Problem_with_fan_noise&diff=12820Problem with fan noise2005-12-05T16:25:19Z<p>212.34.172.148: /* Windows fix */</p>
<hr />
<div>Information about the fan noise problem in Thinkpad models from 2003/2004/2005.<br />
<br />
==Problem description==<br />
<br />
There seem to be two different occurances of the problem (or two different <br />
<br />
===Acceleration (pulsing) problem:===<br />
The Thinkpad fan briefly accelerates in regular intervals every few seconds, causing an annoying periodic pulse noise.<br />
<br />
See [http://lophiomys.gmxhome.de/Thinkpad_R50_Periodic_Fan_Noise.html here] for audio recordings of this noise on ThinkPad {{R50}} and {{R51}}.<br />
<br />
===Always-on problem:===<br />
The Fan is always on, even though the processor is rather cool.<br />
<br />
==Affected Models==<br />
<br />
===Acceleration (pulsing) problem:===<br />
*ThinkPad {{600E}}<br />
*ThinkPad {{R40}}<br />
*ThinkPad {{T40}}, {{T40p}}, {{T41}}, {{T42}}(?), {{T43}}<br />
<br />
===Always-on problem:===<br />
*ThinkPad {{600X}}<br />
*ThinkPad {{770X}}<br />
*ThinkPad {{A31p}}<br />
*ThinkPad {{R32}}, {{R50}}, {{R50p}}, {{R51}}, {{R52}}<br />
*ThinkPad {{T40}}, {{T40p}}, {{T41}}, {{T41p}}, {{T42}}, {{T42p}}, {{T43}}, {{T43p}}<br />
*ThinkPad {{X32}}, {{X40}}, {{X41}}<br />
<br />
==Affected Operating Systems==<br />
<br />
===Acceleration (pulsing) problem:===<br />
*Linux, all flavours<br />
<br />
===Always-on problem:===<br />
*Linux, all flavours<br />
*FreeBSD 5.3<br />
*OpenBSD 3.7 (Tested with X40)<br />
*Windows XP<br />
*Windows 2000 pro<br />
<br />
==Status==<br />
<br />
===Acceleration (pulsing) problem:===<br />
The pulsing seems to be triggered by the embedded controller when it monitors the fan speed and adjusts the fan control accordingly every few seconds.<br />
<br />
For some models, IBM released an update to the embedded controller program that seems to at least partially solve this problem:<br />
<br />
Version 3.03 - 1RHT70WW<br />
NOTE: This version of Embedded Controller Program will only work with BIOS Version 3.06f (or higher).<br />
* (Fix) Reduced Fan noise in some models.<br />
<br />
The update can be found here: http://www-306.ibm.com/pc/support/site.wss/document.do?lndocid=MIGR-50279<br />
<br />
For other models (e.g., ThinkPad {{T43}}), there is a software workaround (see below).<br />
<br />
===Always-on problem:===<br />
The problem is yet unsolved. But see the partial fix below.<br />
<br />
IBM made a statement regarding this on their homepage:<br />
http://www-307.ibm.com/pc/support/site.wss/MIGR-56504.html<br />
<br />
<br />
==Solutions==<br />
<br />
===Acceleration problem:===<br />
<br />
====Replacing the fan====<br />
Some people reported that they replaced the original fan against one of a similar notebook without the problem has worked for them, i.e. changing a {{T41}}s fan against one from a {{T41p}}.<br />
<br />
====BIOS upgrade====<br />
For relevant models, you can try upgrading your embedded controller program to version 3.03 or newer.<br />
The update can be found here: http://www-306.ibm.com/pc/support/site.wss/document.do?lndocid=MIGR-50279<br />
<br />
Also, in late November 2005 IBM released a BIOS and embedded controller update (BIOS 1.24, EC 1.04) for the T43/p<br />
(Machine types 2668, 2669, 2678, 2679, 2686, 2687). Reported results are not consistent and range from cooler sensor readings (some sensors seem to report lower temperatures with this patch), less fan pulsing (also only reported by some users), and slightly different fan behaviour.<br />
The link to this update is: http://www-306.ibm.com/pc/support/site.wss/document.do?sitestyle=ibm&lndocid=MIGR-58597#bios<br />
<br />
====Software workaround====<br />
The problem can be solved through appropriate modulation of the embedded controller, using an [[ACPI fan control script#Variable speed control scripts|ACPI fan control script]].<br />
<br />
===Always on problem:===<br />
<br />
Generally, this problem is triggered by heating due to high power consumption. See [[How to reduce power consumption]].<br />
<br />
<br />
It seems like for some people a combination of enabling dynamic frequency scaling and using the most recent radeon drivers (from xorg 6.8.x) with the DynamicClocks option enabled helped lowing the fan rotation and hence making it more quiet.<br />
<br />
Also the fglrx driver from ATI is said to show the same effect when used together with dynamic frequency scaling.<br />
<br />
On a 770X the fan can be fully controlled through ACPI. Thermal Zone THM5 (possibly the battery/charging circuit, it's definitely warmer when using 5v PCMCIA cards and AC) triggers it to turn on and not ever off by design. Can be solved by a custom DSDT, which also makes use of the variable-speed features of the fan (will release this once I've finished tweaking and testing it).<br />
<br />
I can confirm that on my R51, the graphics card seems to be the problem. The fan keeps running most of the time even with AC on, but even though I activated DynamicClocks (with the radeon driver), I can see in /proc/acpi/ibm/thermal that the GPU (4th value) is at 52-53°. The fan stops running as soon as the temperature gets down to 50 degrees and starts again at 53. While debugging, I seemed(!) to be able to reduce the temperature together with the resolution (e.g. "xrandr -s 2" to get from 1400x1050 to 1024x768) or by switching off the graphics with "xset dpms force off". The bottom line is that the below "partial fix" won't work because the GPU temperature is the problem.<br />
<br />
The GPU also seems to be the culprit on the t43p. Even with the fan always on (with speeds of around 4K reported in /proc/acpi/ibm/fan), the temperature never drops below 55. This is with the Xorg driver and DynamicClocks=on. With the ATI's fglrx driver, the GPU temp seems slightly higher (although I haven't performed a careful comparison). Without the fan, the temperature very quickly climbs to above 60. <br />
<br />
With the Pentium M, CPU heat dissipation can be reduced through [[Pentium M undervolting and underclocking|undervolting and underclocking]].<br />
<br />
In regard to the technical side of controlling the fan, see [[patch for controlling fan speed]] for a description of the embedded controller byte at offset 0x2F which controls the fan activity (T4X series and other later models). In addition to these in the discussion to this topic [http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/Talk:Problem_with_fan_noise] a user observed hidden temperature sensors. In the ACPI DSDT dump a {{T43}} reports 8 temp values at offset 0x78 (some of which may be off and yield a constant value of 0x80), but there are at least three more values at offset 0xC0 which from observation seem to show temperatures as well. One of these sensors (0xC1) is most likely in the area of the mini PCI slot (related to WLAN activity) and seem to trigger the fan at 43°C ({{T43}}, Windows XP). Another one (0xC2) seems to be located below the power supply (rear left, in the area under the Esc, F1-F3 keys). This one noticeably increases when the battery is charged. Both, the 0xC1 and 0xC2 react quite slowly to fan activity.<br />
<br />
An extensive forum discussion of this problem for the ThinkPad {{T43}}/{{T43p}}, and possible hardware mods for thermal enhancement, appear [http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=14580http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=14580 here]. There users who had opened the machine reported uncooled Northbridge and Southbrige chips, having no physical connectino to the heat pipe. Building a hardware copper bridge to these did change the temperature characteristics but did not cure the "always on" problem. In an other discussion on that forum a user said that amongh other areas the WLAN chip may be responsible for generating extra heat and that disabling WLAN (among other unused devices) may help. <br />
<br />
====Partial fix====<br />
{{WARN|This circumvents the BIOS fan control, so be careful and use at your own risk! Don't toast your ThinkPad.}}<br />
<br />
When loading [[ibm-acpi]] v0.11 with experimental switch ({{cmdroot|1=modprobe ibm_acpi experimental=1}}), it is possible to read and write the status of fan:<br />
<br />
'''#cat /proc/acpi/ibm/fan'''<br />
status: enabled<br />
speed: 3580<br />
commands: enable, disable<br />
<br />
'''#echo disable > /proc/acpi/ibm/fan'''<br />
<br />
'''cat /proc/acpi/ibm/fan'''<br />
status: disabled<br />
speed: 0<br />
commands: enable, disable<br />
<br />
But the fan will then '''never''' wake up. So, we need a [[ACPI fan control script|small script]] witch is constantly checking the temperature and setting the fan on/off when needed.<br />
<br />
On my T41 (gentoo-sources-2.6.11.11 ) I noticed that after unloading the fan module the fan noise stopped. With the module loaded the fan was working even at very low cpu temperatures, without the module it's ok so far.<br />
<br />
====Improved partial fix====<br />
<br />
Some models allow for fine control of fan speed. Under Linux, an [[ACPI fan control script#Variable speed control scripts|ACPI fan control script]] can thus be used to override the firmware's fan algorithm with gentler version. <br />
<br />
Manual control can be done through the [[patch for controlling fan speed]], or even just with [[ibm-acpi]] (see instructions in the former):<br />
<br />
'''#cat /proc/acpi/ibm/fan'''<br />
status: enabled<br />
level: auto<br />
speed: 4219<br />
commands: enable, disable, level <level><br />
(<level> is 0-7, auto or disengaged)<br />
<br />
'''#echo level 2 > /proc/acpi/ibm/fan'''<br />
<br />
'''#cat /proc/acpi/ibm/fan'''<br />
status: enabled<br />
level: 2<br />
speed: 3142<br />
commands: enable, disable, level <level><br />
(<level> is 0-7, auto or disengaged)<br />
<br />
====Windows fix====<br />
<br />
Under Windows, Shimodax's ThinkPad fan control tool offers similar functionality (see [http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=17715 forum discussion] at thinkpads.com). Source and binaries are available through the [https://sourceforge.net/projects/tp4xfancontrol/ "Source Forge Tp4xFanFontrol"] project.<br />
<br />
====Cleaning the fan====<br />
<br />
If your ThinkPad is old or has been exposed to dusty environment, it is possible that accumulated dirt on the fan and the heatsink cause abnormal behavior (though the problems have also been reported for brand new units). You can use a combination of a vacuum cleaner and an air dusting spray to clean things up from the outside. Bigger agglomerations of dust may require removing by tweezers through the openings in the fan grill. Getting to the fan itself from the inside is quite tricky and may require removing the LCD.<br />
<br />
After you clean things up, power on your ThinkPad. You should hear the fan start up for a bit when booting. If it does not, this means that the cleaning procedure has actually blocked the fan and your computer will overheat at some point (BIOS POST test does not appear to catch obstructed fans). Keep cleaning.</div>212.34.172.148https://www.thinkwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Problem_with_fan_noise&diff=12819Problem with fan noise2005-12-05T16:24:44Z<p>212.34.172.148: /* Solutions */</p>
<hr />
<div>Information about the fan noise problem in Thinkpad models from 2003/2004/2005.<br />
<br />
==Problem description==<br />
<br />
There seem to be two different occurances of the problem (or two different <br />
<br />
===Acceleration (pulsing) problem:===<br />
The Thinkpad fan briefly accelerates in regular intervals every few seconds, causing an annoying periodic pulse noise.<br />
<br />
See [http://lophiomys.gmxhome.de/Thinkpad_R50_Periodic_Fan_Noise.html here] for audio recordings of this noise on ThinkPad {{R50}} and {{R51}}.<br />
<br />
===Always-on problem:===<br />
The Fan is always on, even though the processor is rather cool.<br />
<br />
==Affected Models==<br />
<br />
===Acceleration (pulsing) problem:===<br />
*ThinkPad {{600E}}<br />
*ThinkPad {{R40}}<br />
*ThinkPad {{T40}}, {{T40p}}, {{T41}}, {{T42}}(?), {{T43}}<br />
<br />
===Always-on problem:===<br />
*ThinkPad {{600X}}<br />
*ThinkPad {{770X}}<br />
*ThinkPad {{A31p}}<br />
*ThinkPad {{R32}}, {{R50}}, {{R50p}}, {{R51}}, {{R52}}<br />
*ThinkPad {{T40}}, {{T40p}}, {{T41}}, {{T41p}}, {{T42}}, {{T42p}}, {{T43}}, {{T43p}}<br />
*ThinkPad {{X32}}, {{X40}}, {{X41}}<br />
<br />
==Affected Operating Systems==<br />
<br />
===Acceleration (pulsing) problem:===<br />
*Linux, all flavours<br />
<br />
===Always-on problem:===<br />
*Linux, all flavours<br />
*FreeBSD 5.3<br />
*OpenBSD 3.7 (Tested with X40)<br />
*Windows XP<br />
*Windows 2000 pro<br />
<br />
==Status==<br />
<br />
===Acceleration (pulsing) problem:===<br />
The pulsing seems to be triggered by the embedded controller when it monitors the fan speed and adjusts the fan control accordingly every few seconds.<br />
<br />
For some models, IBM released an update to the embedded controller program that seems to at least partially solve this problem:<br />
<br />
Version 3.03 - 1RHT70WW<br />
NOTE: This version of Embedded Controller Program will only work with BIOS Version 3.06f (or higher).<br />
* (Fix) Reduced Fan noise in some models.<br />
<br />
The update can be found here: http://www-306.ibm.com/pc/support/site.wss/document.do?lndocid=MIGR-50279<br />
<br />
For other models (e.g., ThinkPad {{T43}}), there is a software workaround (see below).<br />
<br />
===Always-on problem:===<br />
The problem is yet unsolved. But see the partial fix below.<br />
<br />
IBM made a statement regarding this on their homepage:<br />
http://www-307.ibm.com/pc/support/site.wss/MIGR-56504.html<br />
<br />
<br />
==Solutions==<br />
<br />
===Acceleration problem:===<br />
<br />
====Replacing the fan====<br />
Some people reported that they replaced the original fan against one of a similar notebook without the problem has worked for them, i.e. changing a {{T41}}s fan against one from a {{T41p}}.<br />
<br />
====BIOS upgrade====<br />
For relevant models, you can try upgrading your embedded controller program to version 3.03 or newer.<br />
The update can be found here: http://www-306.ibm.com/pc/support/site.wss/document.do?lndocid=MIGR-50279<br />
<br />
Also, in late November 2005 IBM released a BIOS and embedded controller update (BIOS 1.24, EC 1.04) for the T43/p<br />
(Machine types 2668, 2669, 2678, 2679, 2686, 2687). Reported results are not consistent and range from cooler sensor readings (some sensors seem to report lower temperatures with this patch), less fan pulsing (also only reported by some users), and slightly different fan behaviour.<br />
The link to this update is: http://www-306.ibm.com/pc/support/site.wss/document.do?sitestyle=ibm&lndocid=MIGR-58597#bios<br />
<br />
====Software workaround====<br />
The problem can be solved through appropriate modulation of the embedded controller, using an [[ACPI fan control script#Variable speed control scripts|ACPI fan control script]].<br />
<br />
===Always on problem:===<br />
<br />
Generally, this problem is triggered by heating due to high power consumption. See [[How to reduce power consumption]].<br />
<br />
<br />
It seems like for some people a combination of enabling dynamic frequency scaling and using the most recent radeon drivers (from xorg 6.8.x) with the DynamicClocks option enabled helped lowing the fan rotation and hence making it more quiet.<br />
<br />
Also the fglrx driver from ATI is said to show the same effect when used together with dynamic frequency scaling.<br />
<br />
On a 770X the fan can be fully controlled through ACPI. Thermal Zone THM5 (possibly the battery/charging circuit, it's definitely warmer when using 5v PCMCIA cards and AC) triggers it to turn on and not ever off by design. Can be solved by a custom DSDT, which also makes use of the variable-speed features of the fan (will release this once I've finished tweaking and testing it).<br />
<br />
I can confirm that on my R51, the graphics card seems to be the problem. The fan keeps running most of the time even with AC on, but even though I activated DynamicClocks (with the radeon driver), I can see in /proc/acpi/ibm/thermal that the GPU (4th value) is at 52-53°. The fan stops running as soon as the temperature gets down to 50 degrees and starts again at 53. While debugging, I seemed(!) to be able to reduce the temperature together with the resolution (e.g. "xrandr -s 2" to get from 1400x1050 to 1024x768) or by switching off the graphics with "xset dpms force off". The bottom line is that the below "partial fix" won't work because the GPU temperature is the problem.<br />
<br />
The GPU also seems to be the culprit on the t43p. Even with the fan always on (with speeds of around 4K reported in /proc/acpi/ibm/fan), the temperature never drops below 55. This is with the Xorg driver and DynamicClocks=on. With the ATI's fglrx driver, the GPU temp seems slightly higher (although I haven't performed a careful comparison). Without the fan, the temperature very quickly climbs to above 60. <br />
<br />
With the Pentium M, CPU heat dissipation can be reduced through [[Pentium M undervolting and underclocking|undervolting and underclocking]].<br />
<br />
In regard to the technical side of controlling the fan, see [[patch for controlling fan speed]] for a description of the embedded controller byte at offset 0x2F which controls the fan activity (T4X series and other later models). In addition to these in the discussion to this topic [http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/Talk:Problem_with_fan_noise] a user observed hidden temperature sensors. In the ACPI DSDT dump a {{T43}} reports 8 temp values at offset 0x78 (some of which may be off and yield a constant value of 0x80), but there are at least three more values at offset 0xC0 which from observation seem to show temperatures as well. One of these sensors (0xC1) is most likely in the area of the mini PCI slot (related to WLAN activity) and seem to trigger the fan at 43°C ({{T43}}, Windows XP). Another one (0xC2) seems to be located below the power supply (rear left, in the area under the Esc, F1-F3 keys). This one noticeably increases when the battery is charged. Both, the 0xC1 and 0xC2 react quite slowly to fan activity.<br />
<br />
An extensive forum discussion of this problem for the ThinkPad {{T43}}/{{T43p}}, and possible hardware mods for thermal enhancement, appear [http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=14580http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=14580 here]. There users who had opened the machine reported uncooled Northbridge and Southbrige chips, having no physical connectino to the heat pipe. Building a hardware copper bridge to these did change the temperature characteristics but did not cure the "always on" problem. In an other discussion on that forum a user said that amongh other areas the WLAN chip may be responsible for generating extra heat and that disabling WLAN (among other unused devices) may help. <br />
<br />
====Partial fix====<br />
{{WARN|This circumvents the BIOS fan control, so be careful and use at your own risk! Don't toast your ThinkPad.}}<br />
<br />
When loading [[ibm-acpi]] v0.11 with experimental switch ({{cmdroot|1=modprobe ibm_acpi experimental=1}}), it is possible to read and write the status of fan:<br />
<br />
'''#cat /proc/acpi/ibm/fan'''<br />
status: enabled<br />
speed: 3580<br />
commands: enable, disable<br />
<br />
'''#echo disable > /proc/acpi/ibm/fan'''<br />
<br />
'''cat /proc/acpi/ibm/fan'''<br />
status: disabled<br />
speed: 0<br />
commands: enable, disable<br />
<br />
But the fan will then '''never''' wake up. So, we need a [[ACPI fan control script|small script]] witch is constantly checking the temperature and setting the fan on/off when needed.<br />
<br />
On my T41 (gentoo-sources-2.6.11.11 ) I noticed that after unloading the fan module the fan noise stopped. With the module loaded the fan was working even at very low cpu temperatures, without the module it's ok so far.<br />
<br />
====Improved partial fix====<br />
<br />
Some models allow for fine control of fan speed. Under Linux, an [[ACPI fan control script#Variable speed control scripts|ACPI fan control script]] can thus be used to override the firmware's fan algorithm with gentler version. <br />
<br />
Manual control can be done through the [[patch for controlling fan speed]], or even just with [[ibm-acpi]] (see instructions in the former):<br />
<br />
'''#cat /proc/acpi/ibm/fan'''<br />
status: enabled<br />
level: auto<br />
speed: 4219<br />
commands: enable, disable, level <level><br />
(<level> is 0-7, auto or disengaged)<br />
<br />
'''#echo level 2 > /proc/acpi/ibm/fan'''<br />
<br />
'''#cat /proc/acpi/ibm/fan'''<br />
status: enabled<br />
level: 2<br />
speed: 3142<br />
commands: enable, disable, level <level><br />
(<level> is 0-7, auto or disengaged)<br />
<br />
====Windows fix====<br />
<br />
Under Windows, Shimodax's ThinkPad fan control tool offers similar functionality (see [http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=17715 forum discussion] at thinkpads.com). Source is available as [https://sourceforge.net/projects/tp4xfancontrol/ "Source Forge Tp4xFanFontrol"] project.<br />
<br />
====Cleaning the fan====<br />
<br />
If your ThinkPad is old or has been exposed to dusty environment, it is possible that accumulated dirt on the fan and the heatsink cause abnormal behavior (though the problems have also been reported for brand new units). You can use a combination of a vacuum cleaner and an air dusting spray to clean things up from the outside. Bigger agglomerations of dust may require removing by tweezers through the openings in the fan grill. Getting to the fan itself from the inside is quite tricky and may require removing the LCD.<br />
<br />
After you clean things up, power on your ThinkPad. You should hear the fan start up for a bit when booting. If it does not, this means that the cleaning procedure has actually blocked the fan and your computer will overheat at some point (BIOS POST test does not appear to catch obstructed fans). Keep cleaning.</div>212.34.172.148https://www.thinkwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Problem_with_fan_noise&diff=12818Problem with fan noise2005-12-03T13:25:59Z<p>212.34.172.148: /* BIOS upgrade */</p>
<hr />
<div>Information about the fan noise problem in Thinkpad models from 2003/2004/2005.<br />
<br />
==Problem description==<br />
<br />
There seem to be two different occurances of the problem (or two different <br />
<br />
===Acceleration (pulsing) problem:===<br />
The Thinkpad fan briefly accelerates in regular intervals every few seconds, causing an annoying periodic pulse noise.<br />
<br />
See [http://lophiomys.gmxhome.de/Thinkpad_R50_Periodic_Fan_Noise.html here] for audio recordings of this noise on ThinkPad {{R50}} and {{R51}}.<br />
<br />
===Always-on problem:===<br />
The Fan is always on, even though the processor is rather cool.<br />
<br />
==Affected Models==<br />
<br />
===Acceleration (pulsing) problem:===<br />
*ThinkPad {{600E}}<br />
*ThinkPad {{R40}}<br />
*ThinkPad {{T40}}, {{T40p}}, {{T41}}, {{T42}}(?), {{T43}}<br />
<br />
===Always-on problem:===<br />
*ThinkPad {{600X}}<br />
*ThinkPad {{770X}}<br />
*ThinkPad {{A31p}}<br />
*ThinkPad {{R32}}, {{R50}}, {{R50p}}, {{R51}}, {{R52}}<br />
*ThinkPad {{T40}}, {{T40p}}, {{T41}}, {{T41p}}, {{T42}}, {{T42p}}, {{T43}}, {{T43p}}<br />
*ThinkPad {{X32}}, {{X40}}, {{X41}}<br />
<br />
==Affected Operating Systems==<br />
<br />
===Acceleration (pulsing) problem:===<br />
*Linux, all flavours<br />
<br />
===Always-on problem:===<br />
*Linux, all flavours<br />
*FreeBSD 5.3<br />
*OpenBSD 3.7 (Tested with X40)<br />
*Windows XP<br />
*Windows 2000 pro<br />
<br />
==Status==<br />
<br />
===Acceleration (pulsing) problem:===<br />
The pulsing seems to be triggered by the embedded controller when it monitors the fan speed and adjusts the fan control accordingly every few seconds.<br />
<br />
For some models, IBM released an update to the embedded controller program that seems to at least partially solve this problem:<br />
<br />
Version 3.03 - 1RHT70WW<br />
NOTE: This version of Embedded Controller Program will only work with BIOS Version 3.06f (or higher).<br />
* (Fix) Reduced Fan noise in some models.<br />
<br />
The update can be found here: http://www-306.ibm.com/pc/support/site.wss/document.do?lndocid=MIGR-50279<br />
<br />
For other models (e.g., ThinkPad {{T43}}), there is a software workaround (see below).<br />
<br />
===Always-on problem:===<br />
The problem is yet unsolved. But see the partial fix below.<br />
<br />
IBM made a statement regarding this on their homepage:<br />
http://www-307.ibm.com/pc/support/site.wss/MIGR-56504.html<br />
<br />
<br />
==Solutions==<br />
<br />
===Acceleration problem:===<br />
<br />
====Replacing the fan====<br />
Some people reported that they replaced the original fan against one of a similar notebook without the problem has worked for them, i.e. changing a {{T41}}s fan against one from a {{T41p}}.<br />
<br />
====BIOS upgrade====<br />
For relevant models, you can try upgrading your embedded controller program to version 3.03 or newer.<br />
The update can be found here: http://www-306.ibm.com/pc/support/site.wss/document.do?lndocid=MIGR-50279<br />
<br />
Also, in late November 2005 IBM released a BIOS and embedded controller update (BIOS 1.24, EC 1.04) for the T43/p<br />
(Machine types 2668, 2669, 2678, 2679, 2686, 2687). Reported results are not consistent and range from cooler sensor readings (some sensors seem to report lower temperatures with this patch), less fan pulsing (also only reported by some users), and slightly different fan behaviour.<br />
The link to this update is: http://www-306.ibm.com/pc/support/site.wss/document.do?sitestyle=ibm&lndocid=MIGR-58597#bios<br />
<br />
====Software workaround====<br />
The problem can be solved through appropriate modulation of the embedded controller, using an [[ACPI fan control script#Variable speed control scripts|ACPI fan control script]].<br />
<br />
===Always on problem:===<br />
<br />
Generally, this problem is triggered by heating due to high power consumption. See [[How to reduce power consumption]].<br />
<br />
<br />
It seems like for some people a combination of enabling dynamic frequency scaling and using the most recent radeon drivers (from xorg 6.8.x) with the DynamicClocks option enabled helped lowing the fan rotation and hence making it more quiet.<br />
<br />
Also the fglrx driver from ATI is said to show the same effect when used together with dynamic frequency scaling.<br />
<br />
On a 770X the fan can be fully controlled through ACPI. Thermal Zone THM5 (possibly the battery/charging circuit, it's definitely warmer when using 5v PCMCIA cards and AC) triggers it to turn on and not ever off by design. Can be solved by a custom DSDT, which also makes use of the variable-speed features of the fan (will release this once I've finished tweaking and testing it).<br />
<br />
I can confirm that on my R51, the graphics card seems to be the problem. The fan keeps running most of the time even with AC on, but even though I activated DynamicClocks (with the radeon driver), I can see in /proc/acpi/ibm/thermal that the GPU (4th value) is at 52-53°. The fan stops running as soon as the temperature gets down to 50 degrees and starts again at 53. While debugging, I seemed(!) to be able to reduce the temperature together with the resolution (e.g. "xrandr -s 2" to get from 1400x1050 to 1024x768) or by switching off the graphics with "xset dpms force off". The bottom line is that the below "partial fix" won't work because the GPU temperature is the problem.<br />
<br />
The GPU also seems to be the culprit on the t43p. Even with the fan always on (with speeds of around 4K reported in /proc/acpi/ibm/fan), the temperature never drops below 55. This is with the Xorg driver and DynamicClocks=on. With the ATI's fglrx driver, the GPU temp seems slightly higher (although I haven't performed a careful comparison). Without the fan, the temperature very quickly climbs to above 60. <br />
<br />
With the Pentium M, CPU heat dissipation can be reduced through [[Pentium M undervolting and underclocking|undervolting and underclocking]].<br />
<br />
In regard to the technical side of controlling the fan, see [[patch for controlling fan speed]] for a description of the embedded controller byte at offset 0x2F which controls the fan activity (T4X series and other later models). In addition to these in the discussion to this topic [http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/Talk:Problem_with_fan_noise] a user observed hidden temperature sensors. In the ACPI DSDT dump a {{T43}} reports 8 temp values at offset 0x78 (some of which may be off and yield a constant value of 0x80), but there are at least three more values at offset 0xC0 which from observation seem to show temperatures as well. One of these sensors (0xC1) is most likely in the area of the mini PCI slot (related to WLAN activity) and seem to trigger the fan at 43°C ({{T43}}, Windows XP). Another one (0xC2) seems to be located below the power supply (rear left, in the area under the Esc, F1-F3 keys). This one noticeably increases when the battery is charged. Both, the 0xC1 and 0xC2 react quite slowly to fan activity.<br />
<br />
An extensive forum discussion of this problem for the ThinkPad {{T43}}/{{T43p}}, and possible hardware mods for thermal enhancement, appear [http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=14580http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=14580 here]. There users who had opened the machine reported uncooled Northbridge and Southbrige chips, having no physical connectino to the heat pipe. Building a hardware copper bridge to these did change the temperature characteristics but did not cure the "always on" problem. In an other discussion on that forum a user said that amongh other areas the WLAN chip may be responsible for generating extra heat and that disabling WLAN (among other unused devices) may help. <br />
<br />
====Partial fix====<br />
{{WARN|This circumvents the BIOS fan control, so be careful and use at your own risk! Don't toast your ThinkPad.}}<br />
<br />
When loading [[ibm-acpi]] v0.11 with experimental switch ({{cmdroot|1=modprobe ibm_acpi experimental=1}}), it is possible to read and write the status of fan:<br />
<br />
'''#cat /proc/acpi/ibm/fan'''<br />
status: enabled<br />
speed: 3580<br />
commands: enable, disable<br />
<br />
'''#echo disable > /proc/acpi/ibm/fan'''<br />
<br />
'''cat /proc/acpi/ibm/fan'''<br />
status: disabled<br />
speed: 0<br />
commands: enable, disable<br />
<br />
But the fan will then '''never''' wake up. So, we need a [[ACPI fan control script|small script]] witch is constantly checking the temperature and setting the fan on/off when needed.<br />
<br />
On my T41 (gentoo-sources-2.6.11.11 ) I noticed that after unloading the fan module the fan noise stopped. With the module loaded the fan was working even at very low cpu temperatures, without the module it's ok so far.<br />
<br />
====Improved partial fix====<br />
<br />
Some models allow for fine control of fan speed. Under Linux, an [[ACPI fan control script#Variable speed control scripts|ACPI fan control script]] can thus be used to override the firmware's fan algorithm with gentler version. Under Windows, Shimodax's ThinkPad fan control tool offers similar functionality (see [http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=17715 forum discussion] at thinkpads.com).<br />
<br />
Manual control can be done through the [[patch for controlling fan speed]], or even just with [[ibm-acpi]] (see instructions in the former):<br />
<br />
'''#cat /proc/acpi/ibm/fan'''<br />
status: enabled<br />
level: auto<br />
speed: 4219<br />
commands: enable, disable, level <level><br />
(<level> is 0-7, auto or disengaged)<br />
<br />
'''#echo level 2 > /proc/acpi/ibm/fan'''<br />
<br />
'''#cat /proc/acpi/ibm/fan'''<br />
status: enabled<br />
level: 2<br />
speed: 3142<br />
commands: enable, disable, level <level><br />
(<level> is 0-7, auto or disengaged)<br />
<br />
====Cleaning the fan====<br />
<br />
If your ThinkPad is old or has been exposed to dusty environment, it is possible that accumulated dirt on the fan and the heatsink cause abnormal behavior (though the problems have also been reported for brand new units). You can use a combination of a vacuum cleaner and an air dusting spray to clean things up from the outside. Bigger agglomerations of dust may require removing by tweezers through the openings in the fan grill. Getting to the fan itself from the inside is quite tricky and may require removing the LCD.<br />
<br />
After you clean things up, power on your ThinkPad. You should hear the fan start up for a bit when booting. If it does not, this means that the cleaning procedure has actually blocked the fan and your computer will overheat at some point (BIOS POST test does not appear to catch obstructed fans). Keep cleaning.</div>212.34.172.148https://www.thinkwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Problem_with_fan_noise&diff=12761Problem with fan noise2005-12-03T13:25:02Z<p>212.34.172.148: /* BIOS upgrade */</p>
<hr />
<div>Information about the fan noise problem in Thinkpad models from 2003/2004/2005.<br />
<br />
==Problem description==<br />
<br />
There seem to be two different occurances of the problem (or two different <br />
<br />
===Acceleration (pulsing) problem:===<br />
The Thinkpad fan briefly accelerates in regular intervals every few seconds, causing an annoying periodic pulse noise.<br />
<br />
See [http://lophiomys.gmxhome.de/Thinkpad_R50_Periodic_Fan_Noise.html here] for audio recordings of this noise on ThinkPad {{R50}} and {{R51}}.<br />
<br />
===Always-on problem:===<br />
The Fan is always on, even though the processor is rather cool.<br />
<br />
==Affected Models==<br />
<br />
===Acceleration (pulsing) problem:===<br />
*ThinkPad {{600E}}<br />
*ThinkPad {{R40}}<br />
*ThinkPad {{T40}}, {{T40p}}, {{T41}}, {{T42}}(?), {{T43}}<br />
<br />
===Always-on problem:===<br />
*ThinkPad {{600X}}<br />
*ThinkPad {{770X}}<br />
*ThinkPad {{A31p}}<br />
*ThinkPad {{R32}}, {{R50}}, {{R50p}}, {{R51}}, {{R52}}<br />
*ThinkPad {{T40}}, {{T40p}}, {{T41}}, {{T41p}}, {{T42}}, {{T42p}}, {{T43}}, {{T43p}}<br />
*ThinkPad {{X32}}, {{X40}}, {{X41}}<br />
<br />
==Affected Operating Systems==<br />
<br />
===Acceleration (pulsing) problem:===<br />
*Linux, all flavours<br />
<br />
===Always-on problem:===<br />
*Linux, all flavours<br />
*FreeBSD 5.3<br />
*OpenBSD 3.7 (Tested with X40)<br />
*Windows XP<br />
*Windows 2000 pro<br />
<br />
==Status==<br />
<br />
===Acceleration (pulsing) problem:===<br />
The pulsing seems to be triggered by the embedded controller when it monitors the fan speed and adjusts the fan control accordingly every few seconds.<br />
<br />
For some models, IBM released an update to the embedded controller program that seems to at least partially solve this problem:<br />
<br />
Version 3.03 - 1RHT70WW<br />
NOTE: This version of Embedded Controller Program will only work with BIOS Version 3.06f (or higher).<br />
* (Fix) Reduced Fan noise in some models.<br />
<br />
The update can be found here: http://www-306.ibm.com/pc/support/site.wss/document.do?lndocid=MIGR-50279<br />
<br />
For other models (e.g., ThinkPad {{T43}}), there is a software workaround (see below).<br />
<br />
===Always-on problem:===<br />
The problem is yet unsolved. But see the partial fix below.<br />
<br />
IBM made a statement regarding this on their homepage:<br />
http://www-307.ibm.com/pc/support/site.wss/MIGR-56504.html<br />
<br />
<br />
==Solutions==<br />
<br />
===Acceleration problem:===<br />
<br />
====Replacing the fan====<br />
Some people reported that they replaced the original fan against one of a similar notebook without the problem has worked for them, i.e. changing a {{T41}}s fan against one from a {{T41p}}.<br />
<br />
====BIOS upgrade====<br />
For relevant models, you can try upgrading your embedded controller program to version 3.03 or newer.<br />
The update can be found here: http://www-306.ibm.com/pc/support/site.wss/document.do?lndocid=MIGR-50279<br />
<br />
Also, in late November 2005 IBM released a BIOS and embedded controller update (BIOS 1.24, EC 1.04) for the T43/p. Reported results are not consistent and range from cooler sensor readings (some sensors seem to report lower temperatures with this patch), less fan pulsing (also only reported by some users), and slightly different fan behaviour.<br />
The link to this update is: http://www-306.ibm.com/pc/support/site.wss/document.do?sitestyle=ibm&lndocid=MIGR-58597#bios<br />
<br />
====Software workaround====<br />
The problem can be solved through appropriate modulation of the embedded controller, using an [[ACPI fan control script#Variable speed control scripts|ACPI fan control script]].<br />
<br />
===Always on problem:===<br />
<br />
Generally, this problem is triggered by heating due to high power consumption. See [[How to reduce power consumption]].<br />
<br />
<br />
It seems like for some people a combination of enabling dynamic frequency scaling and using the most recent radeon drivers (from xorg 6.8.x) with the DynamicClocks option enabled helped lowing the fan rotation and hence making it more quiet.<br />
<br />
Also the fglrx driver from ATI is said to show the same effect when used together with dynamic frequency scaling.<br />
<br />
On a 770X the fan can be fully controlled through ACPI. Thermal Zone THM5 (possibly the battery/charging circuit, it's definitely warmer when using 5v PCMCIA cards and AC) triggers it to turn on and not ever off by design. Can be solved by a custom DSDT, which also makes use of the variable-speed features of the fan (will release this once I've finished tweaking and testing it).<br />
<br />
I can confirm that on my R51, the graphics card seems to be the problem. The fan keeps running most of the time even with AC on, but even though I activated DynamicClocks (with the radeon driver), I can see in /proc/acpi/ibm/thermal that the GPU (4th value) is at 52-53°. The fan stops running as soon as the temperature gets down to 50 degrees and starts again at 53. While debugging, I seemed(!) to be able to reduce the temperature together with the resolution (e.g. "xrandr -s 2" to get from 1400x1050 to 1024x768) or by switching off the graphics with "xset dpms force off". The bottom line is that the below "partial fix" won't work because the GPU temperature is the problem.<br />
<br />
The GPU also seems to be the culprit on the t43p. Even with the fan always on (with speeds of around 4K reported in /proc/acpi/ibm/fan), the temperature never drops below 55. This is with the Xorg driver and DynamicClocks=on. With the ATI's fglrx driver, the GPU temp seems slightly higher (although I haven't performed a careful comparison). Without the fan, the temperature very quickly climbs to above 60. <br />
<br />
With the Pentium M, CPU heat dissipation can be reduced through [[Pentium M undervolting and underclocking|undervolting and underclocking]].<br />
<br />
In regard to the technical side of controlling the fan, see [[patch for controlling fan speed]] for a description of the embedded controller byte at offset 0x2F which controls the fan activity (T4X series and other later models). In addition to these in the discussion to this topic [http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/Talk:Problem_with_fan_noise] a user observed hidden temperature sensors. In the ACPI DSDT dump a {{T43}} reports 8 temp values at offset 0x78 (some of which may be off and yield a constant value of 0x80), but there are at least three more values at offset 0xC0 which from observation seem to show temperatures as well. One of these sensors (0xC1) is most likely in the area of the mini PCI slot (related to WLAN activity) and seem to trigger the fan at 43°C ({{T43}}, Windows XP). Another one (0xC2) seems to be located below the power supply (rear left, in the area under the Esc, F1-F3 keys). This one noticeably increases when the battery is charged. Both, the 0xC1 and 0xC2 react quite slowly to fan activity.<br />
<br />
An extensive forum discussion of this problem for the ThinkPad {{T43}}/{{T43p}}, and possible hardware mods for thermal enhancement, appear [http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=14580http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=14580 here]. There users who had opened the machine reported uncooled Northbridge and Southbrige chips, having no physical connectino to the heat pipe. Building a hardware copper bridge to these did change the temperature characteristics but did not cure the "always on" problem. In an other discussion on that forum a user said that amongh other areas the WLAN chip may be responsible for generating extra heat and that disabling WLAN (among other unused devices) may help. <br />
<br />
====Partial fix====<br />
{{WARN|This circumvents the BIOS fan control, so be careful and use at your own risk! Don't toast your ThinkPad.}}<br />
<br />
When loading [[ibm-acpi]] v0.11 with experimental switch ({{cmdroot|1=modprobe ibm_acpi experimental=1}}), it is possible to read and write the status of fan:<br />
<br />
'''#cat /proc/acpi/ibm/fan'''<br />
status: enabled<br />
speed: 3580<br />
commands: enable, disable<br />
<br />
'''#echo disable > /proc/acpi/ibm/fan'''<br />
<br />
'''cat /proc/acpi/ibm/fan'''<br />
status: disabled<br />
speed: 0<br />
commands: enable, disable<br />
<br />
But the fan will then '''never''' wake up. So, we need a [[ACPI fan control script|small script]] witch is constantly checking the temperature and setting the fan on/off when needed.<br />
<br />
On my T41 (gentoo-sources-2.6.11.11 ) I noticed that after unloading the fan module the fan noise stopped. With the module loaded the fan was working even at very low cpu temperatures, without the module it's ok so far.<br />
<br />
====Improved partial fix====<br />
<br />
Some models allow for fine control of fan speed. Under Linux, an [[ACPI fan control script#Variable speed control scripts|ACPI fan control script]] can thus be used to override the firmware's fan algorithm with gentler version. Under Windows, Shimodax's ThinkPad fan control tool offers similar functionality (see [http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=17715 forum discussion] at thinkpads.com).<br />
<br />
Manual control can be done through the [[patch for controlling fan speed]], or even just with [[ibm-acpi]] (see instructions in the former):<br />
<br />
'''#cat /proc/acpi/ibm/fan'''<br />
status: enabled<br />
level: auto<br />
speed: 4219<br />
commands: enable, disable, level <level><br />
(<level> is 0-7, auto or disengaged)<br />
<br />
'''#echo level 2 > /proc/acpi/ibm/fan'''<br />
<br />
'''#cat /proc/acpi/ibm/fan'''<br />
status: enabled<br />
level: 2<br />
speed: 3142<br />
commands: enable, disable, level <level><br />
(<level> is 0-7, auto or disengaged)<br />
<br />
====Cleaning the fan====<br />
<br />
If your ThinkPad is old or has been exposed to dusty environment, it is possible that accumulated dirt on the fan and the heatsink cause abnormal behavior (though the problems have also been reported for brand new units). You can use a combination of a vacuum cleaner and an air dusting spray to clean things up from the outside. Bigger agglomerations of dust may require removing by tweezers through the openings in the fan grill. Getting to the fan itself from the inside is quite tricky and may require removing the LCD.<br />
<br />
After you clean things up, power on your ThinkPad. You should hear the fan start up for a bit when booting. If it does not, this means that the cleaning procedure has actually blocked the fan and your computer will overheat at some point (BIOS POST test does not appear to catch obstructed fans). Keep cleaning.</div>212.34.172.148https://www.thinkwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Problem_with_fan_noise&diff=12760Problem with fan noise2005-12-03T13:21:12Z<p>212.34.172.148: /* Always on problem: */</p>
<hr />
<div>Information about the fan noise problem in Thinkpad models from 2003/2004/2005.<br />
<br />
==Problem description==<br />
<br />
There seem to be two different occurances of the problem (or two different <br />
<br />
===Acceleration (pulsing) problem:===<br />
The Thinkpad fan briefly accelerates in regular intervals every few seconds, causing an annoying periodic pulse noise.<br />
<br />
See [http://lophiomys.gmxhome.de/Thinkpad_R50_Periodic_Fan_Noise.html here] for audio recordings of this noise on ThinkPad {{R50}} and {{R51}}.<br />
<br />
===Always-on problem:===<br />
The Fan is always on, even though the processor is rather cool.<br />
<br />
==Affected Models==<br />
<br />
===Acceleration (pulsing) problem:===<br />
*ThinkPad {{600E}}<br />
*ThinkPad {{R40}}<br />
*ThinkPad {{T40}}, {{T40p}}, {{T41}}, {{T42}}(?), {{T43}}<br />
<br />
===Always-on problem:===<br />
*ThinkPad {{600X}}<br />
*ThinkPad {{770X}}<br />
*ThinkPad {{A31p}}<br />
*ThinkPad {{R32}}, {{R50}}, {{R50p}}, {{R51}}, {{R52}}<br />
*ThinkPad {{T40}}, {{T40p}}, {{T41}}, {{T41p}}, {{T42}}, {{T42p}}, {{T43}}, {{T43p}}<br />
*ThinkPad {{X32}}, {{X40}}, {{X41}}<br />
<br />
==Affected Operating Systems==<br />
<br />
===Acceleration (pulsing) problem:===<br />
*Linux, all flavours<br />
<br />
===Always-on problem:===<br />
*Linux, all flavours<br />
*FreeBSD 5.3<br />
*OpenBSD 3.7 (Tested with X40)<br />
*Windows XP<br />
*Windows 2000 pro<br />
<br />
==Status==<br />
<br />
===Acceleration (pulsing) problem:===<br />
The pulsing seems to be triggered by the embedded controller when it monitors the fan speed and adjusts the fan control accordingly every few seconds.<br />
<br />
For some models, IBM released an update to the embedded controller program that seems to at least partially solve this problem:<br />
<br />
Version 3.03 - 1RHT70WW<br />
NOTE: This version of Embedded Controller Program will only work with BIOS Version 3.06f (or higher).<br />
* (Fix) Reduced Fan noise in some models.<br />
<br />
The update can be found here: http://www-306.ibm.com/pc/support/site.wss/document.do?lndocid=MIGR-50279<br />
<br />
For other models (e.g., ThinkPad {{T43}}), there is a software workaround (see below).<br />
<br />
===Always-on problem:===<br />
The problem is yet unsolved. But see the partial fix below.<br />
<br />
IBM made a statement regarding this on their homepage:<br />
http://www-307.ibm.com/pc/support/site.wss/MIGR-56504.html<br />
<br />
<br />
==Solutions==<br />
<br />
===Acceleration problem:===<br />
<br />
====Replacing the fan====<br />
Some people reported that they replaced the original fan against one of a similar notebook without the problem has worked for them, i.e. changing a {{T41}}s fan against one from a {{T41p}}.<br />
<br />
====BIOS upgrade====<br />
For relevant models, you can try upgrading your embedded controller program to version 3.03 or newer.<br />
<br />
The update can be found here: http://www-306.ibm.com/pc/support/site.wss/document.do?lndocid=MIGR-50279<br />
<br />
====Software workaround====<br />
The problem can be solved through appropriate modulation of the embedded controller, using an [[ACPI fan control script#Variable speed control scripts|ACPI fan control script]].<br />
<br />
===Always on problem:===<br />
<br />
Generally, this problem is triggered by heating due to high power consumption. See [[How to reduce power consumption]].<br />
<br />
<br />
It seems like for some people a combination of enabling dynamic frequency scaling and using the most recent radeon drivers (from xorg 6.8.x) with the DynamicClocks option enabled helped lowing the fan rotation and hence making it more quiet.<br />
<br />
Also the fglrx driver from ATI is said to show the same effect when used together with dynamic frequency scaling.<br />
<br />
On a 770X the fan can be fully controlled through ACPI. Thermal Zone THM5 (possibly the battery/charging circuit, it's definitely warmer when using 5v PCMCIA cards and AC) triggers it to turn on and not ever off by design. Can be solved by a custom DSDT, which also makes use of the variable-speed features of the fan (will release this once I've finished tweaking and testing it).<br />
<br />
I can confirm that on my R51, the graphics card seems to be the problem. The fan keeps running most of the time even with AC on, but even though I activated DynamicClocks (with the radeon driver), I can see in /proc/acpi/ibm/thermal that the GPU (4th value) is at 52-53°. The fan stops running as soon as the temperature gets down to 50 degrees and starts again at 53. While debugging, I seemed(!) to be able to reduce the temperature together with the resolution (e.g. "xrandr -s 2" to get from 1400x1050 to 1024x768) or by switching off the graphics with "xset dpms force off". The bottom line is that the below "partial fix" won't work because the GPU temperature is the problem.<br />
<br />
The GPU also seems to be the culprit on the t43p. Even with the fan always on (with speeds of around 4K reported in /proc/acpi/ibm/fan), the temperature never drops below 55. This is with the Xorg driver and DynamicClocks=on. With the ATI's fglrx driver, the GPU temp seems slightly higher (although I haven't performed a careful comparison). Without the fan, the temperature very quickly climbs to above 60. <br />
<br />
With the Pentium M, CPU heat dissipation can be reduced through [[Pentium M undervolting and underclocking|undervolting and underclocking]].<br />
<br />
In regard to the technical side of controlling the fan, see [[patch for controlling fan speed]] for a description of the embedded controller byte at offset 0x2F which controls the fan activity (T4X series and other later models). In addition to these in the discussion to this topic [http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/Talk:Problem_with_fan_noise] a user observed hidden temperature sensors. In the ACPI DSDT dump a {{T43}} reports 8 temp values at offset 0x78 (some of which may be off and yield a constant value of 0x80), but there are at least three more values at offset 0xC0 which from observation seem to show temperatures as well. One of these sensors (0xC1) is most likely in the area of the mini PCI slot (related to WLAN activity) and seem to trigger the fan at 43°C ({{T43}}, Windows XP). Another one (0xC2) seems to be located below the power supply (rear left, in the area under the Esc, F1-F3 keys). This one noticeably increases when the battery is charged. Both, the 0xC1 and 0xC2 react quite slowly to fan activity.<br />
<br />
An extensive forum discussion of this problem for the ThinkPad {{T43}}/{{T43p}}, and possible hardware mods for thermal enhancement, appear [http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=14580http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=14580 here]. There users who had opened the machine reported uncooled Northbridge and Southbrige chips, having no physical connectino to the heat pipe. Building a hardware copper bridge to these did change the temperature characteristics but did not cure the "always on" problem. In an other discussion on that forum a user said that amongh other areas the WLAN chip may be responsible for generating extra heat and that disabling WLAN (among other unused devices) may help. <br />
<br />
====Partial fix====<br />
{{WARN|This circumvents the BIOS fan control, so be careful and use at your own risk! Don't toast your ThinkPad.}}<br />
<br />
When loading [[ibm-acpi]] v0.11 with experimental switch ({{cmdroot|1=modprobe ibm_acpi experimental=1}}), it is possible to read and write the status of fan:<br />
<br />
'''#cat /proc/acpi/ibm/fan'''<br />
status: enabled<br />
speed: 3580<br />
commands: enable, disable<br />
<br />
'''#echo disable > /proc/acpi/ibm/fan'''<br />
<br />
'''cat /proc/acpi/ibm/fan'''<br />
status: disabled<br />
speed: 0<br />
commands: enable, disable<br />
<br />
But the fan will then '''never''' wake up. So, we need a [[ACPI fan control script|small script]] witch is constantly checking the temperature and setting the fan on/off when needed.<br />
<br />
On my T41 (gentoo-sources-2.6.11.11 ) I noticed that after unloading the fan module the fan noise stopped. With the module loaded the fan was working even at very low cpu temperatures, without the module it's ok so far.<br />
<br />
====Improved partial fix====<br />
<br />
Some models allow for fine control of fan speed. Under Linux, an [[ACPI fan control script#Variable speed control scripts|ACPI fan control script]] can thus be used to override the firmware's fan algorithm with gentler version. Under Windows, Shimodax's ThinkPad fan control tool offers similar functionality (see [http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=17715 forum discussion] at thinkpads.com).<br />
<br />
Manual control can be done through the [[patch for controlling fan speed]], or even just with [[ibm-acpi]] (see instructions in the former):<br />
<br />
'''#cat /proc/acpi/ibm/fan'''<br />
status: enabled<br />
level: auto<br />
speed: 4219<br />
commands: enable, disable, level <level><br />
(<level> is 0-7, auto or disengaged)<br />
<br />
'''#echo level 2 > /proc/acpi/ibm/fan'''<br />
<br />
'''#cat /proc/acpi/ibm/fan'''<br />
status: enabled<br />
level: 2<br />
speed: 3142<br />
commands: enable, disable, level <level><br />
(<level> is 0-7, auto or disengaged)<br />
<br />
====Cleaning the fan====<br />
<br />
If your ThinkPad is old or has been exposed to dusty environment, it is possible that accumulated dirt on the fan and the heatsink cause abnormal behavior (though the problems have also been reported for brand new units). You can use a combination of a vacuum cleaner and an air dusting spray to clean things up from the outside. Bigger agglomerations of dust may require removing by tweezers through the openings in the fan grill. Getting to the fan itself from the inside is quite tricky and may require removing the LCD.<br />
<br />
After you clean things up, power on your ThinkPad. You should hear the fan start up for a bit when booting. If it does not, this means that the cleaning procedure has actually blocked the fan and your computer will overheat at some point (BIOS POST test does not appear to catch obstructed fans). Keep cleaning.</div>212.34.172.148https://www.thinkwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Problem_with_fan_noise&diff=12763Talk:Problem with fan noise2005-12-03T13:15:43Z<p>212.34.172.148: </p>
<hr />
<div>== Problem with fan noise on R51 1829 L7G (ATI M9) ==<br />
<br />
On my R51 the fan is behaving like this:<br />
<br />
* > 45C -> fan on;<br />
* < 38C -> fan off.<br />
<br />
By using cpufreq + laptop_mode + Xorg DynamicClocks + WiFi power management, I get the fan stopped time to time, but only for 3 minutes time (transition from 38 C -> 45 C). The cooling down cycle is taking 20 minutes in the best case.<br />
<br />
I knew about the 'ibm_acpi experimental=1' trick, but in my opinion this is not very useful since nobody can guarantee that a temperature greater then 45 C will not damage the laptop and in the same time the transition time is very short (the laptop gets hot fast without fan).<br />
<br />
== Thinkpad T42 Radeon Mobility M7 ==<br />
<br />
When Xorg is running, the fan is always on and pretty loud !<br />
Setting DynamicClocks does not help<br />
<br />
it's clear that the GPU is the problem on the thinkpad :<br />
<br />
after 10minutes with the fan off<br />
temperatures: 44 47 33 52 32 -128 24 -128<br />
<br />
1: CPU<br />
2: Mini PCI Module<br />
3: HDD<br />
4: GPU<br />
5: Battery<br />
6: N/A<br />
7: Battery<br />
8: N/A<br />
<br />
Controlling the fan speed would be really cool !<br />
<br />
What is the maximum temperature not to cross ?<br />
----<br />
Word on the 'net is that 85 degrees is the max operating temp for most of the Intel chips. I've seen some high 70's all the time (just put it on carpet for awhile and play some quake3 :). I wouldn't let your processor get much higher than 85...<br />
<br />
----<br />
Older versions of xorg (i.e. 6.7.0) don't seem to be able to use the DynamicClocks option although it's set in the xorg.conf. Search the log to find out if it's really used.<br />
<br />
== Thinkpad R32 with Radeon Mobility M6 ==<br />
<br />
Updating xorg-x11 from 6.7.0 to 6.8.2 and using Speedstep (with the ondemand module in this case) helped cooling the system down significantly:<br />
<br />
* before updating the CPU was ~62 C in idle state, and got very near the critical temperature (72 C) during heavy load - I even got some freezes because of the heat ;)<br />
* after the update the CPU is ~54 C in idle state, and still gets to about 68 C while under heavy load<br />
<br />
The second sensor (which may be the GPU) is somehow fixed to 50 C (maybe a bug?)<br />
<br />
The fan on the R32 is behaving like this:<br />
<br />
* > 61 -> fan in state 2 (quite noisy)<br />
* < 55 -> fan in state 1 (less noisy :) )<br />
<br />
But I remember using my old SuSE distribution with kernel 2.4.16, apm and some old x11 version the fan actually stopped completely from time to time.<br />
<br />
Concerning the maximum temperature of the CPU, I found that the critical temperature on the R32 for the CPU sensor is 72 C<br />
(using {{cmdroot|cat /proc/acpi/thermal_zone/THM0/trip_points }} )<br />
<br />
== Fan Control script: more save version ==<br />
<br />
ibm_acpi works well on my R50 and R51. But to rely on it completely, I modified the script in two ways:<br />
<br />
1. It catches verious signals and turns the fan on before it quits<br />
<br />
2. It turns off the fan under very strict conditions, leaving it on when unexpected errors occur.<br />
<br />
Here is my script:<br />
<br />
#!/bin/sh<br />
<br />
# july 2005 Erik Groeneveld, erik@cq2.nl<br />
# More conservatiev and saver version<br />
# It make sure the fan is on in case of errors<br />
# and only turns it off when all temps are ok.<br />
<br />
IBM_ACPI=/proc/acpi/ibm<br />
THERMOMETER=$IBM_ACPI/thermal<br />
FAN=$IBM_ACPI/fan<br />
MAXTRIPPOINT=65<br />
MINTRIPPOINT=60<br />
TRIPPOINT=$MINTRIPPOINT<br />
<br />
echo fancontrol: Thermometer: $THERMOMETER, Fan: $FAN<br />
echo fancontrol: Current `cat $THERMOMETER`<br />
echo fancontrol: Controlling temperatures between $MINTRIPPOINT and $MAXTRIPPOINT degrees.<br />
<br />
# Make sure the fan is turned on when the script crashes or is killed<br />
trap "echo enable > $FAN; exit 0" HUP KILL INT ABRT STOP QUIT SEGV TERM<br />
<br />
while [ 1 ];<br />
do<br />
command=enable<br />
temperatures=`sed s/temperatures:// < $THERMOMETER`<br />
result=<br />
for temp in $temperatures<br />
do<br />
test $temp -le $TRIPPOINT && result=$result.Ok<br />
done<br />
if [ "$result" = ".Ok.Ok.Ok.Ok.Ok.Ok.Ok.Ok" ]; then<br />
command=disable<br />
TRIPPOINT=$MAXTRIPPOINT<br />
else<br />
command=enable<br />
TRIPPOINT=$MINTRIPPOINT<br />
fi<br />
echo $command > $FAN<br />
# Temperature ramps up quickly, so pick this not too large:<br />
sleep 5<br />
done<br />
<br />
----<br />
I added this script to the other ones. Don't wander about my talk edits, i didn't realize i was on the talk page. [[User:Wyrfel|Wyrfel]] 01:48, 13 Aug 2005 (CEST)<br />
----<br />
<br />
== X41 ==<br />
<br />
Same fan problem here on the X41. Once it starts it won't stop (unless it is _very_ cold outside). Undervolting the CPU doesn't help - still the same problem.<br />
<br />
== Fan speed control? ==<br />
<br />
Only the X31 and X40 have an ACPI method for controlling the FAN speed (this is why ibm_acpi provides this functionality just for these models).<br />
<br />
What will happen if we take the "FANS" method from the [http://acpi.sourceforge.net/dsdt/view.php?id=219 X40 DSDT], paste it into a iasl-disassembled DSDT of (say) a T43, recompile it and [http://gaugusch.at/kernel.shtml tell the kernel] to use the patched DSDT? ibm_acpi will present the functionality, but it may or may not work.<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 16:16, 28 Sep 2005 (CEST)<br />
<br />
Any risk of damaging the hardware when doing this? E.g. what does occur if the system overheats - will the CPU be destroyed are does it automatically switch of? As I've just bought a new X41 I don't want to take any stupid risks - but otherwise I'd say let's try it out.<br />
<br />
--gst Thu Sep 29 18:14:13 CEST 2005<br />
<br />
I think Intel CPUs have some built-in thermal protection, but I'd hate to test it. And of course, any fiddling with the hardware at this level might damage it. That said, when the CPU is mostly idle it keeps a reasonable temperature even when the fan is disabled, so as long as you keep an eye on both the CPU usage meter and /proc/acpi/ibm/thermal, things should be pretty safe temperature-wise. For extra safety you can force the CPU to its lowest speed via {{path|/sys/devices/system/cpu/cpu0/cpufreq/scaling_max_freq}}.<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 18:33, 29 Sep 2005 (CEST)<br />
<br />
== Further discussion ==<br />
<br />
I've just found a very interesting thread regarding the same issue on HP notebooks. IMO it provides many insight information about heat/fan problems in general, the URL is: http://forums1.itrc.hp.com/service/forums/questionanswer.do?threadId=853249<br />
Especially the posts by the HP engineer "Andy Fisher" are very interesting. IBM should be able to provide the same BIOS fix as HP did (maybe I should have bought an HP notebook instead of a Thinkpad?).<br />
<br />
I've also contacted IBM/Lenovo support via the website about the fan issue. Maybe it helps when others do this as well (especially people who bought larger quantities) so that this issue is taken serious by Lenovo. Is there already any official response to this problem?<br />
<br />
--gst Thu Sep 29 19:40:34 CEST 2005<br />
----<br />
<br />
Two of the changes mentioned by the HP engineer make perfect sense here: raise the low trip points and make speed transition gradual. Oh, and get rid of the annoying beat pattern (a brief speed pulse every few seconds) it sometimes gets into!<br />
<br />
But from our perspective, what would probably be best is to do the whole thing in software, providing the flexibility for personal preferences and smart decisions. The hardware would only enforce emergency override or throttle/shutdown for extreme temperatures. Then we could do cute things like having a software daemon lower the thresholds in a noisy environment (as judged using the built-in microphone) or when the laptop is on the user's lap (as judged by the built-in accelometers).<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 18:47, 30 Sep 2005 (CEST)<br />
<br />
I noticed that on my T43 the fan is usually in one of two modes, low speed (around 3300 RPM, triggered around CPU=47deg) and medium speed (around 4100 RPM, can't figure out the trip condition). The former is nearly inaudible, but the latter is quite noticable in the absense of strong background noises.<br />
<br />
Now, the problem is that once it has tripped into medium speed, it usually never comes back to low speed until the next reboot. So once it happens, to quiet things down I can only run one of the fan-disabling scripts given here. But with a disabled fan the T43 is not thermally stable, so it will spend its time moving back and forth between the hysteresis thresholds, i.e., toggling between 4100 RPM and 0 RPM every few minutes. This is quite silly and annoying, when staying at low speed would be both more stable and more quiet.<br />
<br />
I hope someone will find a way to control the fan speed, or at least to reset the embedded controller's hysteresis state.<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 10:29, 6 Oct 2005 (CEST)<br />
<br />
When you do changes to e.g. the Energy Schema in Windows or you eject the Thinkpad of the Docking Station it seems that the controllers state is rest. At least on the X41 the fan does stop until it reaches the threshold to start some minutes later. So it should be doable. --85.124.171.70<br />
<br />
That's good. But just like a bunch of other functions (e.g., controlling the battery charge threshold), it probably uses low-level undocumented proprietary interfaces which are very hard to figure out without the help of IBM/Lenovo, who are in denial about the whole thing. --[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 01:40, 16 Oct 2005 (CEST)<br />
<br />
----<br />
<br />
== Works fine with APM instead of ACPI? ==<br />
<br />
On my X41 the fan starts after about 10 minutes of use and doesn't stop (until it is rather cold in my room - and even then it runs most of the time ;) A friend of mine who has a X41 too (though another model) and who does use NetBSD and APM doesn't experience this problem. He claims that the fan only comes up if the system is not idle. So either it is colder in his room, the X41 model which he has doesn't have this flaw or APM does use different tresholds than ACPI.<br />
<br />
* Then why not just try the {{bootparm|acpi|off}} kernel parameter and see what happens? --[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 18:14, 30 Sep 2005 (CEST)<br />
<br />
I currently don't have physical access to the X41. Will try in a few days.<br />
<br />
== Rewiring the fan? ==<br />
<br />
Since IBM/Lenovo shows no intention of fixing their embedded controller firmware or releasing its specs, how about getting the embedded controller out of the loop? I'd be happy as a clam if my fan was hard-wired to work at a constant 3000RPM, with temperatures kept at bay in software through CPU frequenty control.<br />
<br />
Assuming the fan has the standard 3-wire connector, we can probaby keep the sensor and ground wires untouched, and rewire the positive wire to some nearby current source of appropriate voltage (through a resistor, for fine-tuning). The trick would be to find an easily tappable source that can handle an extra 2W and has the appropriate voltage (i.e., just slightly higher than what the fan needs to rotate at that RPM, so we don't waste too much energy in the resistor). Any idea what are the typical fan voltages and what would be an appropriate hookup point?<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 01:59, 16 Oct 2005 (CEST)<br />
----<br />
<br />
== Secret sensor and the cause of fan always on ==<br />
<br />
On my {{T43}}, ecdump offsets 0xC0-0xC2 seem to include 3 more temperature sensors that are not seen in {{path|/proc/acpi/ibm/thermal}}:<br />
# cat /proc/acpi/ibm/thermal; <br />
temperatures: 44 41 33 42 33 -128 30 -128<br />
# perl -ne 'm/^EC 0xc0: .(..) .(..) .(..) / or next; print hex($1)." ".hex($2)." ".hex($3)."\n"' < /proc/acpi/ibm/ecdump<br />
40 48 43<br />
<br />
Note the "48" entry (EC offset 0xC1). Something's pretty hot even at full full speed (level 7, 4700RPM). This sensor increases very quickly when the system starts (in fact, faster than anything else when the CPU is undervolted and [[fglrx]] is in maximum powersaving).<br />
<br />
Now, note this: the fan kicks up from low speed to medium speed whenever this sensor reaches 46 degrees, even if no other sensor changes; and this seems to usually be the first trigger encountered. Moreover, this sensor hovers around 47-48 degrees even on an idle machine. Taken together, '''this fully explains the "fan always on" behavior: a previously-unnoticed sensor that's always hot.'''<br />
<br />
Any idea what this sensor is? It seems correlated with WiFi: there's a 2deg difference when I toggle {{path|/sys/bus/pci/drivers/ipw2200/*/rf_kill}} (without ever being associated so this shouldn't affect anything else), and heavy WiFi data transfer increases temperature by several more degrees. This suggests the sensor is located in or close to the mini-PCI slot (i.e., under the touchpad). That region is indeed often hot to the touch. But why would the mini-PCI slot get so hot? Could it be the southbridge, which sits under the mini-PCI slot with no heatsink and poor ventilation? Can anyone correlate this sensor other specific activity, or with blocking of specific ventilation holes, or with cooling of specific components? If it's the mini-PCI slot? The operating temperature of the Intel 2200BG is [ftp://download.intel.com/network/connectivity/resources/doc_library/tech_brief/2200bg_prodbrief.pdf 0-80 deg].<br />
<br />
Caveat: this is my experience with a {{T43}} after [[Pentium M undervolting and underclocking|undervolting]] the CPU and activating [[How to make use of Graphics Chips Power Management features|maximal GPU powersaving using fglrx]]. It could be that for other people, other components are the first to trigger. But either way, those are 3 temperature sensors we didn't know of and they're used by the Embedded Controller's algorithm.<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 16:20, 20 Nov 2005 (CET)<br />
----<br />
<br />
At the moment I am experimenting with controlling the fan on Windows XP with a self written tool on a {{T43}} (Model 2668 97G). Having found the information about the secret sensors here I built these into the program and it seems that after starting my cooled (placed outside) {{T43}} the 0xC1 sensor indeed rises fastest but also cools down quite quicky especially if also the CPU is cool. I have seen it hotter than the CPU but not much cooler, so probably it is a small chip connected to the colling element of the CPU.<br />
<br />
The values at 0xC0 and 0xC2 also seem to show temperature values here, while 0xC4 is always at 128.<br />
<br />
First experiments indicate that as long as all the temperature value are below 43°C the Thinkpad comes up with no fan and stays that way. (The fan control register at EC offset 0x2F set to 0x80, see the bottom of the [[patch for controlling fan speed]] page for a description of this register). If 43°C are reached on the 0xC1 sensor, the fan kicks in with low speed while 43°C on the CPU do not activate the fan. With regard to the CPU the kick-in seems to be around 48°C.<br />
<br />
Once the fan is on, it goes off again if all the seonsors drop to the area of 38°C or lower (the value may not be precise). But it hardly happens on it's own, for tests I placed it outside in cold weather.<br />
<br />
On [http://forum.thinkpads.com/ forums.thinkpad.com] is a ([http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=14580http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=14580 discussion]) from users who experimented with physically cooling the North- and Southbridge without success. In a different thread there a user claimed that he worked with a couple of Thinkpads and silenced them by turning off unused devices, WLAN being among them.<br />
<br />
With the XP WLAN device disabled the temperature on 0xC1 stays around 41°C here even if there is heavy activity on the CPU. It rises as soon as the WLAN device is enabled but hardly goes any hotter than 44°C. But I also could not make it go hot at all running on battery. And the heat reading there somehow more or less follows the value of the CPU.<br />
<br />
Bottom line on my {{T43}} (2668 97G): Fan kicks in for CPU around 48°C or 0xC1 at 43°C and then never goes off again unless you use external cooling. 0xC1 sensor could to be related to WLAN (I'm not really sure about it) and/or is probably placed near the CPU. It could also have something to do with running the machine no AC rather than battery.<br />
<br />
-- Shimdoax - 2005-11-27<br />
----<br />
<br />
Shimdoax, you said "''I have seen it hotter than the CPU but not much cooler, so probably it is a small chip connected to the colling element of the CPU''", but also "''the temperature on 0xC1 stays around 41°C here even if there is heavy activity on the CPU''". It follows that your CPU is never much hotter than 41°C, which I find unlikely... Anyway, on my T43, sensor 0cC1 is correlated with the CPU but very slightly; it is more correlated with the GPU, but not very much either.<br />
<br />
I suspect that sensor 0xC1 sits on the system board under the touchpad, since this is consistent with all of the following:<br />
* In idle with wireless off, sensor 0xC1 has roughly the same temperature as the GPU (which is adjacent on the system board, under the spacebar and TrackPoint buttons).<br />
* Correlation with the WLAN card activity (which is sandwiched between the system board and the touchpad).<br />
* Quick warm-up (the southbridge is also on the system board under the touchpad, and has no heat spreader).<br />
* Negligible effect of fan speed on 0xC1 temperature (the touchpad area is cramped and lacks decent ventilation, hence has negligible air flow).<br />
* When I place a 12cm-by-12cm pad of thick thermally isolating material (a folded fleece blanket...) under the touchpad, 0xC1 temperature consistently rises by 2-3 degrees (and cools back when I remove the pad); other sensors seem unaffected.<br />
<br />
If this is indeed the case, it's hard to see what can be done (other than using a fan control script with an increased threshold for this sensor). It looks like IBM/Lenovo counted on this area being passively cooled through the bottom of the case - see how the bottom of the laptop is designed to allow air flow under the front quarter? However, once the desk under the laptop has warmed up (or if air flow is blocked, as when the laptop is sitting on the top of a lap), things just cook up. The [http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=14580http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=14580 mods] which thermally connet the southbridge to the GPU cooling assembly might improve things a bit, but on my system sensor 0xC1 isn't much hotter than the GPU anyway. Maybe ventilation can be improved by letting in more air through the speaker grills on the front - does anyone know what things looks like, under the very front of the palmrest? This won't solve "fan always on" since it will help only when the fan is on, but it may let the fan run at a lower speed.<br />
<br />
BTW, Shimdoax, how are you monitoring/controlling the EC under Windows?<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 18:22, 27 Nov 2005 (CET)<br />
----<br />
<br />
Thinker,<br />
<br />
I currently don't know where to read the GPU temp from, so I can't say much about it (I'm running XP and have not found drivers or tools that would display the GPU).<br />
<br />
However, regarding my experiments: I had the machine on my desk earlier today (when I wrote the post) on AC with WLAN connection to the office network and "Max. Battery Life" Scheme. I had taken it from the trunk of the car (it's quite cold outside, around freezing). During the whole experiments the CPU hardly went higher than 46°C, most of the time it was around 39°C to 43°C. I wasn't very systematic in these tests, these were just first observations.<br />
<br />
However, I think I can confirm that the 43°C on the C1 triggers the fan on my machine here. 48°C to 50°C on the CPU also triggers the fan on. Then I put the laptop outside the window twice. Temperatures dropped quite quickly and around MAX(CPU, 0xC1) of 38°C the fan turned itself off.<br />
<br />
Further tests on the WLAN revealed mixed results about correlation. If the CPU goes up the C1 also goes up, even if WLAN is disabled. On the other hand I had cases where WLAN (big folder copy) made the C1 rise ahead of the CPU. The way I tested it, mostly the C1 triggered the fan before the CPU did. This at least explains why CPU undervolting/clocking doesn't help much.<br />
<br />
But I think you're right. Without custom scripts I guess it will be hard to keep the C1 below 43°C. This value may even be intentional by IBM. If it is really near the palmrest, higher values may cause burns (I once read about a guy who actually burnt his balls [no joke!] by working with a laptop which had a 42°C - 45°C battery temp. in his lap for an hour or two). So they may think that fan noise is preferrable to bad publicity.<br />
<br />
Hence I'm not counting on IBM. Instead I'm currently writing a custom fan control program for XP, that's how I read the EC there. I'll post a first version [http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=17715 here] later today. Maybe some folks from the hardware modding thread will help to locate the sensors with some cooling spray.<br />
<br />
-- Shimodax - 2005-11-27<br />
----<br />
<br />
Shimodax,<br />
<br />
Great to see work on a Windows solution, especially from Emtec! (Alas, I let my ZOC registration expire when I switched to Linux). Will you be releasing the source code? <br />
<br />
If the 0xC1 sensor is near the southbridge then it will be affected by CPU activity both because of related southbridge activity and by thermal conductance via the motherboard; but I've seen 0xC1 at 47deg and CPU at 59deg (after a long burn-in), so they can't be too close. About the palmrest, IBM actually brags about low palm rest temperature in some of their marketing publication. But ironically the hottest and worst-cooled area of the laptop (where I suspect 0xC1 sits) is in the bottom center right under the touchpad - which tends to coincide with certain anatomical regions... BTW, GPU temp is EC offset 0x7B; there a partial list inside my new fan control script at [[Talk:ACPI_fan_control_script]] (I'll move it to the article page soon).<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 23:20, 27 Nov 2005 (CET)<br />
----<br />
<br />
*LOL* I wouldn't have expected that anybody would know me :-)<br />
<br />
Yes, I'll release source code soon. I took quite some pain in writing this tool without our proprietary classes and libs in order to be able to release the source (or at least maintain a basic Open Source version). I'll see if SourceForge accepts the project (applied on Saturday), otherwise I'll have find another place.<br />
<br />
Thanks for the info about the GPU ... <br />
<br />
Markus<br />
<br />
-- Shimodax - 23:42 (CET) - 2005-11-27<br />
----<br />
<br />
For the record: the new [http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?p=111974 "Shimodax fan control tool : sharing values"] topic at the thinkpads.com forums tracks some other users' experience with their sensor. So far the only new observation is that sensor 0x7A (3rd) is probably in the vicinity of the the CPU or northbridge.<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 12:53, 28 Nov 2005 (CET)<br />
----<br />
<br />
Just now I see the C2 higher than C1 and rest of the system for the first time. Only difference I can think of is the fact that the battery is loading. I hooked it on with 6% left about 30 minutes ago. Usage was mainly web broswing (firefox, maybe a webpage with animated gif ads). C2 triggered the fan at 50°C two times.<br />
<br />
CPU 42°C (0x78)<br />
APS 41°C (0x79)<br />
X7A 34°C (0x7A)<br />
GPU 44°C (0x7B)<br />
BAT 40°C (0x7C)<br />
BAT 31°C (0x7E)<br />
XC0 40°C (0xC0)<br />
XC1 46°C (0xC1)<br />
XC2 48°C (0xC2)<br />
<br />
-- Shimodax 00:17 CET - 2005-11-30<br />
----<br />
<br />
Upon further casual observation I would like to offer the theory that the C2 sensor is indeed related to battery loading and may be located rear/left (under the Esc/F1) on a T43. See: page 2 on [http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?p=111974 "Shimodax fan control tool : sharing values"]<br />
<br />
-- Shimodax 13:27 CET - 2005-12-01<br />
----<br />
<br />
I happen to have a photo of that area from the last time I opened my T43, and indeed it looks like there's some power circuitry there:<br />
<br />
[[Image:T43-2686-DGU-CDC.jpg]]<br />
<br />
Those two "150 A47L" are just above the ventilation grill. Any idea what they could be?<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 20:11, 1 Dec 2005 (CET)<br />
----<br />
<br />
Don't know ... they could look like power stabilizing transistors, but I have very little knowledge of electronic (especially of SMD circuits) so that's just wild guessing.<br />
<br />
Hoever, the system is currently loading battery again and I played with the fan. The C2 does react to the fan quite slowly and when I forced the fan off it rose no higher than 55°C. Also from touching the bottom of the laptop, I'd say the hottest part of that area is between the grill and the latch for the DRAM expansion (probably below the thing in the center of your photo).<br />
<br />
-- Shimodax 01:53 CET - 2005-12-02<br />
<br />
----<br />
<br />
Makes perfect sense. So 0xC2 sits under the CDC and monitors the power circuitry (not just battery charging, since it also heats up slightly above its environment without a battery). Then XC2->PWR, I guess. Two more to go: 0x7A and 0xC0 (both are nice and cool here).<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 03:35, 2 Dec 2005 (CET)<br />
----<br />
<br />
I'll then rename it in my tool with the next release. Btw, do you have any idea what the APS might be on other models?<br />
<br />
<br />
-- Shimodax 14:07 CET - 2005-12-03</div>212.34.172.148https://www.thinkwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Problem_with_fan_noise&diff=12715Talk:Problem with fan noise2005-12-01T12:37:25Z<p>212.34.172.148: /* Secret sensor and the cause of fan always on */</p>
<hr />
<div>== Problem with fan noise on R51 1829 L7G (ATI M9) ==<br />
<br />
On my R51 the fan is behaving like this:<br />
<br />
* > 45C -> fan on;<br />
* < 38C -> fan off.<br />
<br />
By using cpufreq + laptop_mode + Xorg DynamicClocks + WiFi power management, I get the fan stopped time to time, but only for 3 minutes time (transition from 38 C -> 45 C). The cooling down cycle is taking 20 minutes in the best case.<br />
<br />
I knew about the 'ibm_acpi experimental=1' trick, but in my opinion this is not very useful since nobody can guarantee that a temperature greater then 45 C will not damage the laptop and in the same time the transition time is very short (the laptop gets hot fast without fan).<br />
<br />
== Thinkpad T42 Radeon Mobility M7 ==<br />
<br />
When Xorg is running, the fan is always on and pretty loud !<br />
Setting DynamicClocks does not help<br />
<br />
it's clear that the GPU is the problem on the thinkpad :<br />
<br />
after 10minutes with the fan off<br />
temperatures: 44 47 33 52 32 -128 24 -128<br />
<br />
1: CPU<br />
2: Mini PCI Module<br />
3: HDD<br />
4: GPU<br />
5: Battery<br />
6: N/A<br />
7: Battery<br />
8: N/A<br />
<br />
Controlling the fan speed would be really cool !<br />
<br />
What is the maximum temperature not to cross ?<br />
----<br />
Word on the 'net is that 85 degrees is the max operating temp for most of the Intel chips. I've seen some high 70's all the time (just put it on carpet for awhile and play some quake3 :). I wouldn't let your processor get much higher than 85...<br />
<br />
----<br />
Older versions of xorg (i.e. 6.7.0) don't seem to be able to use the DynamicClocks option although it's set in the xorg.conf. Search the log to find out if it's really used.<br />
<br />
== Thinkpad R32 with Radeon Mobility M6 ==<br />
<br />
Updating xorg-x11 from 6.7.0 to 6.8.2 and using Speedstep (with the ondemand module in this case) helped cooling the system down significantly:<br />
<br />
* before updating the CPU was ~62 C in idle state, and got very near the critical temperature (72 C) during heavy load - I even got some freezes because of the heat ;)<br />
* after the update the CPU is ~54 C in idle state, and still gets to about 68 C while under heavy load<br />
<br />
The second sensor (which may be the GPU) is somehow fixed to 50 C (maybe a bug?)<br />
<br />
The fan on the R32 is behaving like this:<br />
<br />
* > 61 -> fan in state 2 (quite noisy)<br />
* < 55 -> fan in state 1 (less noisy :) )<br />
<br />
But I remember using my old SuSE distribution with kernel 2.4.16, apm and some old x11 version the fan actually stopped completely from time to time.<br />
<br />
Concerning the maximum temperature of the CPU, I found that the critical temperature on the R32 for the CPU sensor is 72 C<br />
(using {{cmdroot|cat /proc/acpi/thermal_zone/THM0/trip_points }} )<br />
<br />
== Fan Control script: more save version ==<br />
<br />
ibm_acpi works well on my R50 and R51. But to rely on it completely, I modified the script in two ways:<br />
<br />
1. It catches verious signals and turns the fan on before it quits<br />
<br />
2. It turns off the fan under very strict conditions, leaving it on when unexpected errors occur.<br />
<br />
Here is my script:<br />
<br />
#!/bin/sh<br />
<br />
# july 2005 Erik Groeneveld, erik@cq2.nl<br />
# More conservatiev and saver version<br />
# It make sure the fan is on in case of errors<br />
# and only turns it off when all temps are ok.<br />
<br />
IBM_ACPI=/proc/acpi/ibm<br />
THERMOMETER=$IBM_ACPI/thermal<br />
FAN=$IBM_ACPI/fan<br />
MAXTRIPPOINT=65<br />
MINTRIPPOINT=60<br />
TRIPPOINT=$MINTRIPPOINT<br />
<br />
echo fancontrol: Thermometer: $THERMOMETER, Fan: $FAN<br />
echo fancontrol: Current `cat $THERMOMETER`<br />
echo fancontrol: Controlling temperatures between $MINTRIPPOINT and $MAXTRIPPOINT degrees.<br />
<br />
# Make sure the fan is turned on when the script crashes or is killed<br />
trap "echo enable > $FAN; exit 0" HUP KILL INT ABRT STOP QUIT SEGV TERM<br />
<br />
while [ 1 ];<br />
do<br />
command=enable<br />
temperatures=`sed s/temperatures:// < $THERMOMETER`<br />
result=<br />
for temp in $temperatures<br />
do<br />
test $temp -le $TRIPPOINT && result=$result.Ok<br />
done<br />
if [ "$result" = ".Ok.Ok.Ok.Ok.Ok.Ok.Ok.Ok" ]; then<br />
command=disable<br />
TRIPPOINT=$MAXTRIPPOINT<br />
else<br />
command=enable<br />
TRIPPOINT=$MINTRIPPOINT<br />
fi<br />
echo $command > $FAN<br />
# Temperature ramps up quickly, so pick this not too large:<br />
sleep 5<br />
done<br />
<br />
----<br />
I added this script to the other ones. Don't wander about my talk edits, i didn't realize i was on the talk page. [[User:Wyrfel|Wyrfel]] 01:48, 13 Aug 2005 (CEST)<br />
----<br />
<br />
== X41 ==<br />
<br />
Same fan problem here on the X41. Once it starts it won't stop (unless it is _very_ cold outside). Undervolting the CPU doesn't help - still the same problem.<br />
<br />
== Fan speed control? ==<br />
<br />
Only the X31 and X40 have an ACPI method for controlling the FAN speed (this is why ibm_acpi provides this functionality just for these models).<br />
<br />
What will happen if we take the "FANS" method from the [http://acpi.sourceforge.net/dsdt/view.php?id=219 X40 DSDT], paste it into a iasl-disassembled DSDT of (say) a T43, recompile it and [http://gaugusch.at/kernel.shtml tell the kernel] to use the patched DSDT? ibm_acpi will present the functionality, but it may or may not work.<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 16:16, 28 Sep 2005 (CEST)<br />
<br />
Any risk of damaging the hardware when doing this? E.g. what does occur if the system overheats - will the CPU be destroyed are does it automatically switch of? As I've just bought a new X41 I don't want to take any stupid risks - but otherwise I'd say let's try it out.<br />
<br />
--gst Thu Sep 29 18:14:13 CEST 2005<br />
<br />
I think Intel CPUs have some built-in thermal protection, but I'd hate to test it. And of course, any fiddling with the hardware at this level might damage it. That said, when the CPU is mostly idle it keeps a reasonable temperature even when the fan is disabled, so as long as you keep an eye on both the CPU usage meter and /proc/acpi/ibm/thermal, things should be pretty safe temperature-wise. For extra safety you can force the CPU to its lowest speed via {{path|/sys/devices/system/cpu/cpu0/cpufreq/scaling_max_freq}}.<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 18:33, 29 Sep 2005 (CEST)<br />
<br />
== Further discussion ==<br />
<br />
I've just found a very interesting thread regarding the same issue on HP notebooks. IMO it provides many insight information about heat/fan problems in general, the URL is: http://forums1.itrc.hp.com/service/forums/questionanswer.do?threadId=853249<br />
Especially the posts by the HP engineer "Andy Fisher" are very interesting. IBM should be able to provide the same BIOS fix as HP did (maybe I should have bought an HP notebook instead of a Thinkpad?).<br />
<br />
I've also contacted IBM/Lenovo support via the website about the fan issue. Maybe it helps when others do this as well (especially people who bought larger quantities) so that this issue is taken serious by Lenovo. Is there already any official response to this problem?<br />
<br />
--gst Thu Sep 29 19:40:34 CEST 2005<br />
----<br />
<br />
Two of the changes mentioned by the HP engineer make perfect sense here: raise the low trip points and make speed transition gradual. Oh, and get rid of the annoying beat pattern (a brief speed pulse every few seconds) it sometimes gets into!<br />
<br />
But from our perspective, what would probably be best is to do the whole thing in software, providing the flexibility for personal preferences and smart decisions. The hardware would only enforce emergency override or throttle/shutdown for extreme temperatures. Then we could do cute things like having a software daemon lower the thresholds in a noisy environment (as judged using the built-in microphone) or when the laptop is on the user's lap (as judged by the built-in accelometers).<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 18:47, 30 Sep 2005 (CEST)<br />
<br />
I noticed that on my T43 the fan is usually in one of two modes, low speed (around 3300 RPM, triggered around CPU=47deg) and medium speed (around 4100 RPM, can't figure out the trip condition). The former is nearly inaudible, but the latter is quite noticable in the absense of strong background noises.<br />
<br />
Now, the problem is that once it has tripped into medium speed, it usually never comes back to low speed until the next reboot. So once it happens, to quiet things down I can only run one of the fan-disabling scripts given here. But with a disabled fan the T43 is not thermally stable, so it will spend its time moving back and forth between the hysteresis thresholds, i.e., toggling between 4100 RPM and 0 RPM every few minutes. This is quite silly and annoying, when staying at low speed would be both more stable and more quiet.<br />
<br />
I hope someone will find a way to control the fan speed, or at least to reset the embedded controller's hysteresis state.<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 10:29, 6 Oct 2005 (CEST)<br />
<br />
When you do changes to e.g. the Energy Schema in Windows or you eject the Thinkpad of the Docking Station it seems that the controllers state is rest. At least on the X41 the fan does stop until it reaches the threshold to start some minutes later. So it should be doable. --85.124.171.70<br />
<br />
That's good. But just like a bunch of other functions (e.g., controlling the battery charge threshold), it probably uses low-level undocumented proprietary interfaces which are very hard to figure out without the help of IBM/Lenovo, who are in denial about the whole thing. --[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 01:40, 16 Oct 2005 (CEST)<br />
<br />
----<br />
<br />
== Works fine with APM instead of ACPI? ==<br />
<br />
On my X41 the fan starts after about 10 minutes of use and doesn't stop (until it is rather cold in my room - and even then it runs most of the time ;) A friend of mine who has a X41 too (though another model) and who does use NetBSD and APM doesn't experience this problem. He claims that the fan only comes up if the system is not idle. So either it is colder in his room, the X41 model which he has doesn't have this flaw or APM does use different tresholds than ACPI.<br />
<br />
* Then why not just try the {{bootparm|acpi|off}} kernel parameter and see what happens? --[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 18:14, 30 Sep 2005 (CEST)<br />
<br />
I currently don't have physical access to the X41. Will try in a few days.<br />
<br />
== Rewiring the fan? ==<br />
<br />
Since IBM/Lenovo shows no intention of fixing their embedded controller firmware or releasing its specs, how about getting the embedded controller out of the loop? I'd be happy as a clam if my fan was hard-wired to work at a constant 3000RPM, with temperatures kept at bay in software through CPU frequenty control.<br />
<br />
Assuming the fan has the standard 3-wire connector, we can probaby keep the sensor and ground wires untouched, and rewire the positive wire to some nearby current source of appropriate voltage (through a resistor, for fine-tuning). The trick would be to find an easily tappable source that can handle an extra 2W and has the appropriate voltage (i.e., just slightly higher than what the fan needs to rotate at that RPM, so we don't waste too much energy in the resistor). Any idea what are the typical fan voltages and what would be an appropriate hookup point?<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 01:59, 16 Oct 2005 (CEST)<br />
----<br />
<br />
== Secret sensor and the cause of fan always on ==<br />
<br />
On my {{T43}}, ecdump offsets 0xC0-0xC2 seem to include 3 more temperature sensors that are not seen in {{path|/proc/acpi/ibm/thermal}}:<br />
# cat /proc/acpi/ibm/thermal; <br />
temperatures: 44 41 33 42 33 -128 30 -128<br />
# perl -ne 'm/^EC 0xc0: .(..) .(..) .(..) / or next; print hex($1)." ".hex($2)." ".hex($3)."\n"' < /proc/acpi/ibm/ecdump<br />
40 48 43<br />
<br />
Note the "48" entry (EC offset 0xC1). Something's pretty hot even at full full speed (level 7, 4700RPM). This sensor increases very quickly when the system starts (in fact, faster than anything else when the CPU is undervolted and [[fglrx]] is in maximum powersaving).<br />
<br />
Now, note this: the fan kicks up from low speed to medium speed whenever this sensor reaches 46 degrees, even if no other sensor changes; and this seems to usually be the first trigger encountered. Moreover, this sensor hovers around 47-48 degrees even on an idle machine. Taken together, '''this fully explains the "fan always on" behavior: a previously-unnoticed sensor that's always hot.'''<br />
<br />
Any idea what this sensor is? It seems correlated with WiFi: there's a 2deg difference when I toggle {{path|/sys/bus/pci/drivers/ipw2200/*/rf_kill}} (without ever being associated so this shouldn't affect anything else), and heavy WiFi data transfer increases temperature by several more degrees. This suggests the sensor is located in or close to the mini-PCI slot (i.e., under the touchpad). That region is indeed often hot to the touch. But why would the mini-PCI slot get so hot? Could it be the southbridge, which sits under the mini-PCI slot with no heatsink and poor ventilation? Can anyone correlate this sensor other specific activity, or with blocking of specific ventilation holes, or with cooling of specific components? If it's the mini-PCI slot? The operating temperature of the Intel 2200BG is [ftp://download.intel.com/network/connectivity/resources/doc_library/tech_brief/2200bg_prodbrief.pdf 0-80 deg].<br />
<br />
Caveat: this is my experience with a {{T43}} after [[Pentium M undervolting and underclocking|undervolting]] the CPU and activating [[How to make use of Graphics Chips Power Management features|maximal GPU powersaving using fglrx]]. It could be that for other people, other components are the first to trigger. But either way, those are 3 temperature sensors we didn't know of and they're used by the Embedded Controller's algorithm.<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 16:20, 20 Nov 2005 (CET)<br />
----<br />
<br />
At the moment I am experimenting with controlling the fan on Windows XP with a self written tool on a {{T43}} (Model 2668 97G). Having found the information about the secret sensors here I built these into the program and it seems that after starting my cooled (placed outside) {{T43}} the 0xC1 sensor indeed rises fastest but also cools down quite quicky especially if also the CPU is cool. I have seen it hotter than the CPU but not much cooler, so probably it is a small chip connected to the colling element of the CPU.<br />
<br />
The values at 0xC0 and 0xC2 also seem to show temperature values here, while 0xC4 is always at 128.<br />
<br />
First experiments indicate that as long as all the temperature value are below 43°C the Thinkpad comes up with no fan and stays that way. (The fan control register at EC offset 0x2F set to 0x80, see the bottom of the [[patch for controlling fan speed]] page for a description of this register). If 43°C are reached on the 0xC1 sensor, the fan kicks in with low speed while 43°C on the CPU do not activate the fan. With regard to the CPU the kick-in seems to be around 48°C.<br />
<br />
Once the fan is on, it goes off again if all the seonsors drop to the area of 38°C or lower (the value may not be precise). But it hardly happens on it's own, for tests I placed it outside in cold weather.<br />
<br />
On [http://forum.thinkpads.com/ forums.thinkpad.com] is a ([http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=14580http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=14580 discussion]) from users who experimented with physically cooling the North- and Southbridge without success. In a different thread there a user claimed that he worked with a couple of Thinkpads and silenced them by turning off unused devices, WLAN being among them.<br />
<br />
With the XP WLAN device disabled the temperature on 0xC1 stays around 41°C here even if there is heavy activity on the CPU. It rises as soon as the WLAN device is enabled but hardly goes any hotter than 44°C. But I also could not make it go hot at all running on battery. And the heat reading there somehow more or less follows the value of the CPU.<br />
<br />
Bottom line on my {{T43}} (2668 97G): Fan kicks in for CPU around 48°C or 0xC1 at 43°C and then never goes off again unless you use external cooling. 0xC1 sensor could to be related to WLAN (I'm not really sure about it) and/or is probably placed near the CPU. It could also have something to do with running the machine no AC rather than battery.<br />
<br />
-- Shimdoax - 2005-11-27<br />
----<br />
<br />
Shimdoax, you said "''I have seen it hotter than the CPU but not much cooler, so probably it is a small chip connected to the colling element of the CPU''", but also "''the temperature on 0xC1 stays around 41°C here even if there is heavy activity on the CPU''". It follows that your CPU is never much hotter than 41°C, which I find unlikely... Anyway, on my T43, sensor 0cC1 is correlated with the CPU but very slightly; it is more correlated with the GPU, but not very much either.<br />
<br />
I suspect that sensor 0xC1 sits on the system board under the touchpad, since this is consistent with all of the following:<br />
* In idle with wireless off, sensor 0xC1 has roughly the same temperature as the GPU (which is adjacent on the system board, under the spacebar and TrackPoint buttons).<br />
* Correlation with the WLAN card activity (which is sandwiched between the system board and the touchpad).<br />
* Quick warm-up (the southbridge is also on the system board under the touchpad, and has no heat spreader).<br />
* Negligible effect of fan speed on 0xC1 temperature (the touchpad area is cramped and lacks decent ventilation, hence has negligible air flow).<br />
* When I place a 12cm-by-12cm pad of thick thermally isolating material (a folded fleece blanket...) under the touchpad, 0xC1 temperature consistently rises by 2-3 degrees (and cools back when I remove the pad); other sensors seem unaffected.<br />
<br />
If this is indeed the case, it's hard to see what can be done (other than using a fan control script with an increased threshold for this sensor). It looks like IBM/Lenovo counted on this area being passively cooled through the bottom of the case - see how the bottom of the laptop is designed to allow air flow under the front quarter? However, once the desk under the laptop has warmed up (or if air flow is blocked, as when the laptop is sitting on the top of a lap), things just cook up. The [http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=14580http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=14580 mods] which thermally connet the southbridge to the GPU cooling assembly might improve things a bit, but on my system sensor 0xC1 isn't much hotter than the GPU anyway. Maybe ventilation can be improved by letting in more air through the speaker grills on the front - does anyone know what things looks like, under the very front of the palmrest? This won't solve "fan always on" since it will help only when the fan is on, but it may let the fan run at a lower speed.<br />
<br />
BTW, Shimdoax, how are you monitoring/controlling the EC under Windows?<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 18:22, 27 Nov 2005 (CET)<br />
----<br />
<br />
Thinker,<br />
<br />
I currently don't know where to read the GPU temp from, so I can't say much about it (I'm running XP and have not found drivers or tools that would display the GPU).<br />
<br />
However, regarding my experiments: I had the machine on my desk earlier today (when I wrote the post) on AC with WLAN connection to the office network and "Max. Battery Life" Scheme. I had taken it from the trunk of the car (it's quite cold outside, around freezing). During the whole experiments the CPU hardly went higher than 46°C, most of the time it was around 39°C to 43°C. I wasn't very systematic in these tests, these were just first observations.<br />
<br />
However, I think I can confirm that the 43°C on the C1 triggers the fan on my machine here. 48°C to 50°C on the CPU also triggers the fan on. Then I put the laptop outside the window twice. Temperatures dropped quite quickly and around MAX(CPU, 0xC1) of 38°C the fan turned itself off.<br />
<br />
Further tests on the WLAN revealed mixed results about correlation. If the CPU goes up the C1 also goes up, even if WLAN is disabled. On the other hand I had cases where WLAN (big folder copy) made the C1 rise ahead of the CPU. The way I tested it, mostly the C1 triggered the fan before the CPU did. This at least explains why CPU undervolting/clocking doesn't help much.<br />
<br />
But I think you're right. Without custom scripts I guess it will be hard to keep the C1 below 43°C. This value may even be intentional by IBM. If it is really near the palmrest, higher values may cause burns (I once read about a guy who actually burnt his balls [no joke!] by working with a laptop which had a 42°C - 45°C battery temp. in his lap for an hour or two). So they may think that fan noise is preferrable to bad publicity.<br />
<br />
Hence I'm not counting on IBM. Instead I'm currently writing a custom fan control program for XP, that's how I read the EC there. I'll post a first version [http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=17715 here] later today. Maybe some folks from the hardware modding thread will help to locate the sensors with some cooling spray.<br />
<br />
-- Shimodax - 2005-11-27<br />
----<br />
<br />
Shimodax,<br />
<br />
Great to see work on a Windows solution, especially from Emtec! (Alas, I let my ZOC registration expire when I switched to Linux). Will you be releasing the source code? <br />
<br />
If the 0xC1 sensor is near the southbridge then it will be affected by CPU activity both because of related southbridge activity and by thermal conductance via the motherboard; but I've seen 0xC1 at 47deg and CPU at 59deg (after a long burn-in), so they can't be too close. About the palmrest, IBM actually brags about low palm rest temperature in some of their marketing publication. But ironically the hottest and worst-cooled area of the laptop (where I suspect 0xC1 sits) is in the bottom center right under the touchpad - which tends to coincide with certain anatomical regions... BTW, GPU temp is EC offset 0x7B; there a partial list inside my new fan control script at [[Talk:ACPI_fan_control_script]] (I'll move it to the article page soon).<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 23:20, 27 Nov 2005 (CET)<br />
----<br />
<br />
*LOL* I wouldn't have expected that anybody would know me :-)<br />
<br />
Yes, I'll release source code soon. I took quite some pain in writing this tool without our proprietary classes and libs in order to be able to release the source (or at least maintain a basic Open Source version). I'll see if SourceForge accepts the project (applied on Saturday), otherwise I'll have find another place.<br />
<br />
Thanks for the info about the GPU ... <br />
<br />
Markus<br />
<br />
-- Shimodax - 23:42 (CET) - 2005-11-27<br />
----<br />
<br />
For the record: the new [http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?p=111974 "Shimodax fan control tool : sharing values"] topic at the thinkpads.com forums tracks some other users' experience with their sensor. So far the only new observation is that sensor 0x7A (3rd) is probably in the vicinity of the the CPU or northbridge.<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 12:53, 28 Nov 2005 (CET)<br />
----<br />
<br />
Just now I see the C2 higher than C1 and rest of the system for the first time. Only difference I can think of is the fact that the battery is loading. I hooked it on with 6% left about 30 minutes ago. Usage was mainly web broswing (firefox, maybe a webpage with animated gif ads). C2 triggered the fan at 50°C two times.<br />
<br />
CPU 42°C (0x78)<br />
APS 41°C (0x79)<br />
X7A 34°C (0x7A)<br />
GPU 44°C (0x7B)<br />
BAT 40°C (0x7C)<br />
BAT 31°C (0x7E)<br />
XC0 40°C (0xC0)<br />
XC1 46°C (0xC1)<br />
XC2 48°C (0xC2)<br />
<br />
-- Shimodax 00:17 CET - 2005-11-30<br />
<br />
----<br />
<br />
Upon further casual observation I would like to offer the theory that the C2 sensor is indeed related to battery loading and may be located rear/left (under the Esc/F1) on a T43. See: page 2 on [http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?p=111974 "Shimodax fan control tool : sharing values"]<br />
<br />
-- Shimodax 13:27 CET - 2005-12-01</div>212.34.172.148https://www.thinkwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Problem_with_fan_noise&diff=12706Talk:Problem with fan noise2005-12-01T12:36:02Z<p>212.34.172.148: /* Secret sensor and the cause of fan always on */</p>
<hr />
<div>== Problem with fan noise on R51 1829 L7G (ATI M9) ==<br />
<br />
On my R51 the fan is behaving like this:<br />
<br />
* > 45C -> fan on;<br />
* < 38C -> fan off.<br />
<br />
By using cpufreq + laptop_mode + Xorg DynamicClocks + WiFi power management, I get the fan stopped time to time, but only for 3 minutes time (transition from 38 C -> 45 C). The cooling down cycle is taking 20 minutes in the best case.<br />
<br />
I knew about the 'ibm_acpi experimental=1' trick, but in my opinion this is not very useful since nobody can guarantee that a temperature greater then 45 C will not damage the laptop and in the same time the transition time is very short (the laptop gets hot fast without fan).<br />
<br />
== Thinkpad T42 Radeon Mobility M7 ==<br />
<br />
When Xorg is running, the fan is always on and pretty loud !<br />
Setting DynamicClocks does not help<br />
<br />
it's clear that the GPU is the problem on the thinkpad :<br />
<br />
after 10minutes with the fan off<br />
temperatures: 44 47 33 52 32 -128 24 -128<br />
<br />
1: CPU<br />
2: Mini PCI Module<br />
3: HDD<br />
4: GPU<br />
5: Battery<br />
6: N/A<br />
7: Battery<br />
8: N/A<br />
<br />
Controlling the fan speed would be really cool !<br />
<br />
What is the maximum temperature not to cross ?<br />
----<br />
Word on the 'net is that 85 degrees is the max operating temp for most of the Intel chips. I've seen some high 70's all the time (just put it on carpet for awhile and play some quake3 :). I wouldn't let your processor get much higher than 85...<br />
<br />
----<br />
Older versions of xorg (i.e. 6.7.0) don't seem to be able to use the DynamicClocks option although it's set in the xorg.conf. Search the log to find out if it's really used.<br />
<br />
== Thinkpad R32 with Radeon Mobility M6 ==<br />
<br />
Updating xorg-x11 from 6.7.0 to 6.8.2 and using Speedstep (with the ondemand module in this case) helped cooling the system down significantly:<br />
<br />
* before updating the CPU was ~62 C in idle state, and got very near the critical temperature (72 C) during heavy load - I even got some freezes because of the heat ;)<br />
* after the update the CPU is ~54 C in idle state, and still gets to about 68 C while under heavy load<br />
<br />
The second sensor (which may be the GPU) is somehow fixed to 50 C (maybe a bug?)<br />
<br />
The fan on the R32 is behaving like this:<br />
<br />
* > 61 -> fan in state 2 (quite noisy)<br />
* < 55 -> fan in state 1 (less noisy :) )<br />
<br />
But I remember using my old SuSE distribution with kernel 2.4.16, apm and some old x11 version the fan actually stopped completely from time to time.<br />
<br />
Concerning the maximum temperature of the CPU, I found that the critical temperature on the R32 for the CPU sensor is 72 C<br />
(using {{cmdroot|cat /proc/acpi/thermal_zone/THM0/trip_points }} )<br />
<br />
== Fan Control script: more save version ==<br />
<br />
ibm_acpi works well on my R50 and R51. But to rely on it completely, I modified the script in two ways:<br />
<br />
1. It catches verious signals and turns the fan on before it quits<br />
<br />
2. It turns off the fan under very strict conditions, leaving it on when unexpected errors occur.<br />
<br />
Here is my script:<br />
<br />
#!/bin/sh<br />
<br />
# july 2005 Erik Groeneveld, erik@cq2.nl<br />
# More conservatiev and saver version<br />
# It make sure the fan is on in case of errors<br />
# and only turns it off when all temps are ok.<br />
<br />
IBM_ACPI=/proc/acpi/ibm<br />
THERMOMETER=$IBM_ACPI/thermal<br />
FAN=$IBM_ACPI/fan<br />
MAXTRIPPOINT=65<br />
MINTRIPPOINT=60<br />
TRIPPOINT=$MINTRIPPOINT<br />
<br />
echo fancontrol: Thermometer: $THERMOMETER, Fan: $FAN<br />
echo fancontrol: Current `cat $THERMOMETER`<br />
echo fancontrol: Controlling temperatures between $MINTRIPPOINT and $MAXTRIPPOINT degrees.<br />
<br />
# Make sure the fan is turned on when the script crashes or is killed<br />
trap "echo enable > $FAN; exit 0" HUP KILL INT ABRT STOP QUIT SEGV TERM<br />
<br />
while [ 1 ];<br />
do<br />
command=enable<br />
temperatures=`sed s/temperatures:// < $THERMOMETER`<br />
result=<br />
for temp in $temperatures<br />
do<br />
test $temp -le $TRIPPOINT && result=$result.Ok<br />
done<br />
if [ "$result" = ".Ok.Ok.Ok.Ok.Ok.Ok.Ok.Ok" ]; then<br />
command=disable<br />
TRIPPOINT=$MAXTRIPPOINT<br />
else<br />
command=enable<br />
TRIPPOINT=$MINTRIPPOINT<br />
fi<br />
echo $command > $FAN<br />
# Temperature ramps up quickly, so pick this not too large:<br />
sleep 5<br />
done<br />
<br />
----<br />
I added this script to the other ones. Don't wander about my talk edits, i didn't realize i was on the talk page. [[User:Wyrfel|Wyrfel]] 01:48, 13 Aug 2005 (CEST)<br />
----<br />
<br />
== X41 ==<br />
<br />
Same fan problem here on the X41. Once it starts it won't stop (unless it is _very_ cold outside). Undervolting the CPU doesn't help - still the same problem.<br />
<br />
== Fan speed control? ==<br />
<br />
Only the X31 and X40 have an ACPI method for controlling the FAN speed (this is why ibm_acpi provides this functionality just for these models).<br />
<br />
What will happen if we take the "FANS" method from the [http://acpi.sourceforge.net/dsdt/view.php?id=219 X40 DSDT], paste it into a iasl-disassembled DSDT of (say) a T43, recompile it and [http://gaugusch.at/kernel.shtml tell the kernel] to use the patched DSDT? ibm_acpi will present the functionality, but it may or may not work.<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 16:16, 28 Sep 2005 (CEST)<br />
<br />
Any risk of damaging the hardware when doing this? E.g. what does occur if the system overheats - will the CPU be destroyed are does it automatically switch of? As I've just bought a new X41 I don't want to take any stupid risks - but otherwise I'd say let's try it out.<br />
<br />
--gst Thu Sep 29 18:14:13 CEST 2005<br />
<br />
I think Intel CPUs have some built-in thermal protection, but I'd hate to test it. And of course, any fiddling with the hardware at this level might damage it. That said, when the CPU is mostly idle it keeps a reasonable temperature even when the fan is disabled, so as long as you keep an eye on both the CPU usage meter and /proc/acpi/ibm/thermal, things should be pretty safe temperature-wise. For extra safety you can force the CPU to its lowest speed via {{path|/sys/devices/system/cpu/cpu0/cpufreq/scaling_max_freq}}.<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 18:33, 29 Sep 2005 (CEST)<br />
<br />
== Further discussion ==<br />
<br />
I've just found a very interesting thread regarding the same issue on HP notebooks. IMO it provides many insight information about heat/fan problems in general, the URL is: http://forums1.itrc.hp.com/service/forums/questionanswer.do?threadId=853249<br />
Especially the posts by the HP engineer "Andy Fisher" are very interesting. IBM should be able to provide the same BIOS fix as HP did (maybe I should have bought an HP notebook instead of a Thinkpad?).<br />
<br />
I've also contacted IBM/Lenovo support via the website about the fan issue. Maybe it helps when others do this as well (especially people who bought larger quantities) so that this issue is taken serious by Lenovo. Is there already any official response to this problem?<br />
<br />
--gst Thu Sep 29 19:40:34 CEST 2005<br />
----<br />
<br />
Two of the changes mentioned by the HP engineer make perfect sense here: raise the low trip points and make speed transition gradual. Oh, and get rid of the annoying beat pattern (a brief speed pulse every few seconds) it sometimes gets into!<br />
<br />
But from our perspective, what would probably be best is to do the whole thing in software, providing the flexibility for personal preferences and smart decisions. The hardware would only enforce emergency override or throttle/shutdown for extreme temperatures. Then we could do cute things like having a software daemon lower the thresholds in a noisy environment (as judged using the built-in microphone) or when the laptop is on the user's lap (as judged by the built-in accelometers).<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 18:47, 30 Sep 2005 (CEST)<br />
<br />
I noticed that on my T43 the fan is usually in one of two modes, low speed (around 3300 RPM, triggered around CPU=47deg) and medium speed (around 4100 RPM, can't figure out the trip condition). The former is nearly inaudible, but the latter is quite noticable in the absense of strong background noises.<br />
<br />
Now, the problem is that once it has tripped into medium speed, it usually never comes back to low speed until the next reboot. So once it happens, to quiet things down I can only run one of the fan-disabling scripts given here. But with a disabled fan the T43 is not thermally stable, so it will spend its time moving back and forth between the hysteresis thresholds, i.e., toggling between 4100 RPM and 0 RPM every few minutes. This is quite silly and annoying, when staying at low speed would be both more stable and more quiet.<br />
<br />
I hope someone will find a way to control the fan speed, or at least to reset the embedded controller's hysteresis state.<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 10:29, 6 Oct 2005 (CEST)<br />
<br />
When you do changes to e.g. the Energy Schema in Windows or you eject the Thinkpad of the Docking Station it seems that the controllers state is rest. At least on the X41 the fan does stop until it reaches the threshold to start some minutes later. So it should be doable. --85.124.171.70<br />
<br />
That's good. But just like a bunch of other functions (e.g., controlling the battery charge threshold), it probably uses low-level undocumented proprietary interfaces which are very hard to figure out without the help of IBM/Lenovo, who are in denial about the whole thing. --[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 01:40, 16 Oct 2005 (CEST)<br />
<br />
----<br />
<br />
== Works fine with APM instead of ACPI? ==<br />
<br />
On my X41 the fan starts after about 10 minutes of use and doesn't stop (until it is rather cold in my room - and even then it runs most of the time ;) A friend of mine who has a X41 too (though another model) and who does use NetBSD and APM doesn't experience this problem. He claims that the fan only comes up if the system is not idle. So either it is colder in his room, the X41 model which he has doesn't have this flaw or APM does use different tresholds than ACPI.<br />
<br />
* Then why not just try the {{bootparm|acpi|off}} kernel parameter and see what happens? --[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 18:14, 30 Sep 2005 (CEST)<br />
<br />
I currently don't have physical access to the X41. Will try in a few days.<br />
<br />
== Rewiring the fan? ==<br />
<br />
Since IBM/Lenovo shows no intention of fixing their embedded controller firmware or releasing its specs, how about getting the embedded controller out of the loop? I'd be happy as a clam if my fan was hard-wired to work at a constant 3000RPM, with temperatures kept at bay in software through CPU frequenty control.<br />
<br />
Assuming the fan has the standard 3-wire connector, we can probaby keep the sensor and ground wires untouched, and rewire the positive wire to some nearby current source of appropriate voltage (through a resistor, for fine-tuning). The trick would be to find an easily tappable source that can handle an extra 2W and has the appropriate voltage (i.e., just slightly higher than what the fan needs to rotate at that RPM, so we don't waste too much energy in the resistor). Any idea what are the typical fan voltages and what would be an appropriate hookup point?<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 01:59, 16 Oct 2005 (CEST)<br />
----<br />
<br />
== Secret sensor and the cause of fan always on ==<br />
<br />
On my {{T43}}, ecdump offsets 0xC0-0xC2 seem to include 3 more temperature sensors that are not seen in {{path|/proc/acpi/ibm/thermal}}:<br />
# cat /proc/acpi/ibm/thermal; <br />
temperatures: 44 41 33 42 33 -128 30 -128<br />
# perl -ne 'm/^EC 0xc0: .(..) .(..) .(..) / or next; print hex($1)." ".hex($2)." ".hex($3)."\n"' < /proc/acpi/ibm/ecdump<br />
40 48 43<br />
<br />
Note the "48" entry (EC offset 0xC1). Something's pretty hot even at full full speed (level 7, 4700RPM). This sensor increases very quickly when the system starts (in fact, faster than anything else when the CPU is undervolted and [[fglrx]] is in maximum powersaving).<br />
<br />
Now, note this: the fan kicks up from low speed to medium speed whenever this sensor reaches 46 degrees, even if no other sensor changes; and this seems to usually be the first trigger encountered. Moreover, this sensor hovers around 47-48 degrees even on an idle machine. Taken together, '''this fully explains the "fan always on" behavior: a previously-unnoticed sensor that's always hot.'''<br />
<br />
Any idea what this sensor is? It seems correlated with WiFi: there's a 2deg difference when I toggle {{path|/sys/bus/pci/drivers/ipw2200/*/rf_kill}} (without ever being associated so this shouldn't affect anything else), and heavy WiFi data transfer increases temperature by several more degrees. This suggests the sensor is located in or close to the mini-PCI slot (i.e., under the touchpad). That region is indeed often hot to the touch. But why would the mini-PCI slot get so hot? Could it be the southbridge, which sits under the mini-PCI slot with no heatsink and poor ventilation? Can anyone correlate this sensor other specific activity, or with blocking of specific ventilation holes, or with cooling of specific components? If it's the mini-PCI slot? The operating temperature of the Intel 2200BG is [ftp://download.intel.com/network/connectivity/resources/doc_library/tech_brief/2200bg_prodbrief.pdf 0-80 deg].<br />
<br />
Caveat: this is my experience with a {{T43}} after [[Pentium M undervolting and underclocking|undervolting]] the CPU and activating [[How to make use of Graphics Chips Power Management features|maximal GPU powersaving using fglrx]]. It could be that for other people, other components are the first to trigger. But either way, those are 3 temperature sensors we didn't know of and they're used by the Embedded Controller's algorithm.<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 16:20, 20 Nov 2005 (CET)<br />
----<br />
<br />
At the moment I am experimenting with controlling the fan on Windows XP with a self written tool on a {{T43}} (Model 2668 97G). Having found the information about the secret sensors here I built these into the program and it seems that after starting my cooled (placed outside) {{T43}} the 0xC1 sensor indeed rises fastest but also cools down quite quicky especially if also the CPU is cool. I have seen it hotter than the CPU but not much cooler, so probably it is a small chip connected to the colling element of the CPU.<br />
<br />
The values at 0xC0 and 0xC2 also seem to show temperature values here, while 0xC4 is always at 128.<br />
<br />
First experiments indicate that as long as all the temperature value are below 43°C the Thinkpad comes up with no fan and stays that way. (The fan control register at EC offset 0x2F set to 0x80, see the bottom of the [[patch for controlling fan speed]] page for a description of this register). If 43°C are reached on the 0xC1 sensor, the fan kicks in with low speed while 43°C on the CPU do not activate the fan. With regard to the CPU the kick-in seems to be around 48°C.<br />
<br />
Once the fan is on, it goes off again if all the seonsors drop to the area of 38°C or lower (the value may not be precise). But it hardly happens on it's own, for tests I placed it outside in cold weather.<br />
<br />
On [http://forum.thinkpads.com/ forums.thinkpad.com] is a ([http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=14580http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=14580 discussion]) from users who experimented with physically cooling the North- and Southbridge without success. In a different thread there a user claimed that he worked with a couple of Thinkpads and silenced them by turning off unused devices, WLAN being among them.<br />
<br />
With the XP WLAN device disabled the temperature on 0xC1 stays around 41°C here even if there is heavy activity on the CPU. It rises as soon as the WLAN device is enabled but hardly goes any hotter than 44°C. But I also could not make it go hot at all running on battery. And the heat reading there somehow more or less follows the value of the CPU.<br />
<br />
Bottom line on my {{T43}} (2668 97G): Fan kicks in for CPU around 48°C or 0xC1 at 43°C and then never goes off again unless you use external cooling. 0xC1 sensor could to be related to WLAN (I'm not really sure about it) and/or is probably placed near the CPU. It could also have something to do with running the machine no AC rather than battery.<br />
<br />
-- Shimdoax - 2005-11-27<br />
----<br />
<br />
Shimdoax, you said "''I have seen it hotter than the CPU but not much cooler, so probably it is a small chip connected to the colling element of the CPU''", but also "''the temperature on 0xC1 stays around 41°C here even if there is heavy activity on the CPU''". It follows that your CPU is never much hotter than 41°C, which I find unlikely... Anyway, on my T43, sensor 0cC1 is correlated with the CPU but very slightly; it is more correlated with the GPU, but not very much either.<br />
<br />
I suspect that sensor 0xC1 sits on the system board under the touchpad, since this is consistent with all of the following:<br />
* In idle with wireless off, sensor 0xC1 has roughly the same temperature as the GPU (which is adjacent on the system board, under the spacebar and TrackPoint buttons).<br />
* Correlation with the WLAN card activity (which is sandwiched between the system board and the touchpad).<br />
* Quick warm-up (the southbridge is also on the system board under the touchpad, and has no heat spreader).<br />
* Negligible effect of fan speed on 0xC1 temperature (the touchpad area is cramped and lacks decent ventilation, hence has negligible air flow).<br />
* When I place a 12cm-by-12cm pad of thick thermally isolating material (a folded fleece blanket...) under the touchpad, 0xC1 temperature consistently rises by 2-3 degrees (and cools back when I remove the pad); other sensors seem unaffected.<br />
<br />
If this is indeed the case, it's hard to see what can be done (other than using a fan control script with an increased threshold for this sensor). It looks like IBM/Lenovo counted on this area being passively cooled through the bottom of the case - see how the bottom of the laptop is designed to allow air flow under the front quarter? However, once the desk under the laptop has warmed up (or if air flow is blocked, as when the laptop is sitting on the top of a lap), things just cook up. The [http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=14580http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=14580 mods] which thermally connet the southbridge to the GPU cooling assembly might improve things a bit, but on my system sensor 0xC1 isn't much hotter than the GPU anyway. Maybe ventilation can be improved by letting in more air through the speaker grills on the front - does anyone know what things looks like, under the very front of the palmrest? This won't solve "fan always on" since it will help only when the fan is on, but it may let the fan run at a lower speed.<br />
<br />
BTW, Shimdoax, how are you monitoring/controlling the EC under Windows?<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 18:22, 27 Nov 2005 (CET)<br />
----<br />
<br />
Thinker,<br />
<br />
I currently don't know where to read the GPU temp from, so I can't say much about it (I'm running XP and have not found drivers or tools that would display the GPU).<br />
<br />
However, regarding my experiments: I had the machine on my desk earlier today (when I wrote the post) on AC with WLAN connection to the office network and "Max. Battery Life" Scheme. I had taken it from the trunk of the car (it's quite cold outside, around freezing). During the whole experiments the CPU hardly went higher than 46°C, most of the time it was around 39°C to 43°C. I wasn't very systematic in these tests, these were just first observations.<br />
<br />
However, I think I can confirm that the 43°C on the C1 triggers the fan on my machine here. 48°C to 50°C on the CPU also triggers the fan on. Then I put the laptop outside the window twice. Temperatures dropped quite quickly and around MAX(CPU, 0xC1) of 38°C the fan turned itself off.<br />
<br />
Further tests on the WLAN revealed mixed results about correlation. If the CPU goes up the C1 also goes up, even if WLAN is disabled. On the other hand I had cases where WLAN (big folder copy) made the C1 rise ahead of the CPU. The way I tested it, mostly the C1 triggered the fan before the CPU did. This at least explains why CPU undervolting/clocking doesn't help much.<br />
<br />
But I think you're right. Without custom scripts I guess it will be hard to keep the C1 below 43°C. This value may even be intentional by IBM. If it is really near the palmrest, higher values may cause burns (I once read about a guy who actually burnt his balls [no joke!] by working with a laptop which had a 42°C - 45°C battery temp. in his lap for an hour or two). So they may think that fan noise is preferrable to bad publicity.<br />
<br />
Hence I'm not counting on IBM. Instead I'm currently writing a custom fan control program for XP, that's how I read the EC there. I'll post a first version [http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=17715 here] later today. Maybe some folks from the hardware modding thread will help to locate the sensors with some cooling spray.<br />
<br />
-- Shimodax - 2005-11-27<br />
----<br />
<br />
Shimodax,<br />
<br />
Great to see work on a Windows solution, especially from Emtec! (Alas, I let my ZOC registration expire when I switched to Linux). Will you be releasing the source code? <br />
<br />
If the 0xC1 sensor is near the southbridge then it will be affected by CPU activity both because of related southbridge activity and by thermal conductance via the motherboard; but I've seen 0xC1 at 47deg and CPU at 59deg (after a long burn-in), so they can't be too close. About the palmrest, IBM actually brags about low palm rest temperature in some of their marketing publication. But ironically the hottest and worst-cooled area of the laptop (where I suspect 0xC1 sits) is in the bottom center right under the touchpad - which tends to coincide with certain anatomical regions... BTW, GPU temp is EC offset 0x7B; there a partial list inside my new fan control script at [[Talk:ACPI_fan_control_script]] (I'll move it to the article page soon).<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 23:20, 27 Nov 2005 (CET)<br />
----<br />
<br />
*LOL* I wouldn't have expected that anybody would know me :-)<br />
<br />
Yes, I'll release source code soon. I took quite some pain in writing this tool without our proprietary classes and libs in order to be able to release the source (or at least maintain a basic Open Source version). I'll see if SourceForge accepts the project (applied on Saturday), otherwise I'll have find another place.<br />
<br />
Thanks for the info about the GPU ... <br />
<br />
Markus<br />
<br />
-- Shimodax - 23:42 (CET) - 2005-11-27<br />
----<br />
<br />
For the record: the new [http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?p=111974 "Shimodax fan control tool : sharing values"] topic at the thinkpads.com forums tracks some other users' experience with their sensor. So far the only new observation is that sensor 0x7A (3rd) is probably in the vicinity of the the CPU or northbridge.<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 12:53, 28 Nov 2005 (CET)<br />
----<br />
<br />
Just now I see the C2 higher than C1 and rest of the system for the first time. Only difference I can think of is the fact that the battery is loading. I hooked it on with 6% left about 30 minutes ago. Usage was mainly web broswing (firefox, maybe a webpage with animated gif ads). C2 triggered the fan at 50°C two times.<br />
<br />
CPU 42°C (0x78)<br />
APS 41°C (0x79)<br />
X7A 34°C (0x7A)<br />
GPU 44°C (0x7B)<br />
BAT 40°C (0x7C)<br />
BAT 31°C (0x7E)<br />
XC0 40°C (0xC0)<br />
XC1 46°C (0xC1)<br />
XC2 48°C (0xC2)<br />
<br />
-- Shimodax 00:17 CET - 2005-11-30<br />
<br />
----<br />
<br />
Upon further casual observation I would offer the theory that the C2 sensor is indeed related to battery loading and may be located rear/left (under the Esc/F1) on a T43.<br />
<br />
-- Shimodax 13:27 CET - 2005-12-01</div>212.34.172.148https://www.thinkwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Problem_with_fan_noise&diff=12582Talk:Problem with fan noise2005-11-27T15:32:44Z<p>212.34.172.148: /* Observations about the Secret Sensors */</p>
<hr />
<div>== Problem with fan noise on R51 1829 L7G (ATI M9) ==<br />
<br />
On my R51 the fan is behaving like this:<br />
<br />
* > 45C -> fan on;<br />
* < 38C -> fan off.<br />
<br />
By using cpufreq + laptop_mode + Xorg DynamicClocks + WiFi power management, I get the fan stopped time to time, but only for 3 minutes time (transition from 38 C -> 45 C). The cooling down cycle is taking 20 minutes in the best case.<br />
<br />
I knew about the 'ibm_acpi experimental=1' trick, but in my opinion this is not very useful since nobody can guarantee that a temperature greater then 45 C will not damage the laptop and in the same time the transition time is very short (the laptop gets hot fast without fan).<br />
<br />
== Thinkpad T42 Radeon Mobility M7 ==<br />
<br />
When Xorg is running, the fan is always on and pretty loud !<br />
Setting DynamicClocks does not help<br />
<br />
it's clear that the GPU is the problem on the thinkpad :<br />
<br />
after 10minutes with the fan off<br />
temperatures: 44 47 33 52 32 -128 24 -128<br />
<br />
1: CPU<br />
2: Mini PCI Module<br />
3: HDD<br />
4: GPU<br />
5: Battery<br />
6: N/A<br />
7: Battery<br />
8: N/A<br />
<br />
Controlling the fan speed would be really cool !<br />
<br />
What is the maximum temperature not to cross ?<br />
----<br />
Word on the 'net is that 85 degrees is the max operating temp for most of the Intel chips. I've seen some high 70's all the time (just put it on carpet for awhile and play some quake3 :). I wouldn't let your processor get much higher than 85...<br />
<br />
----<br />
Older versions of xorg (i.e. 6.7.0) don't seem to be able to use the DynamicClocks option although it's set in the xorg.conf. Search the log to find out if it's really used.<br />
<br />
== Thinkpad R32 with Radeon Mobility M6 ==<br />
<br />
Updating xorg-x11 from 6.7.0 to 6.8.2 and using Speedstep (with the ondemand module in this case) helped cooling the system down significantly:<br />
<br />
* before updating the CPU was ~62 C in idle state, and got very near the critical temperature (72 C) during heavy load - I even got some freezes because of the heat ;)<br />
* after the update the CPU is ~54 C in idle state, and still gets to about 68 C while under heavy load<br />
<br />
The second sensor (which may be the GPU) is somehow fixed to 50 C (maybe a bug?)<br />
<br />
The fan on the R32 is behaving like this:<br />
<br />
* > 61 -> fan in state 2 (quite noisy)<br />
* < 55 -> fan in state 1 (less noisy :) )<br />
<br />
But I remember using my old SuSE distribution with kernel 2.4.16, apm and some old x11 version the fan actually stopped completely from time to time.<br />
<br />
Concerning the maximum temperature of the CPU, I found that the critical temperature on the R32 for the CPU sensor is 72 C<br />
(using {{cmdroot|cat /proc/acpi/thermal_zone/THM0/trip_points }} )<br />
<br />
== Fan Control script: more save version ==<br />
<br />
ibm_acpi works well on my R50 and R51. But to rely on it completely, I modified the script in two ways:<br />
<br />
1. It catches verious signals and turns the fan on before it quits<br />
<br />
2. It turns off the fan under very strict conditions, leaving it on when unexpected errors occur.<br />
<br />
Here is my script:<br />
<br />
#!/bin/sh<br />
<br />
# july 2005 Erik Groeneveld, erik@cq2.nl<br />
# More conservatiev and saver version<br />
# It make sure the fan is on in case of errors<br />
# and only turns it off when all temps are ok.<br />
<br />
IBM_ACPI=/proc/acpi/ibm<br />
THERMOMETER=$IBM_ACPI/thermal<br />
FAN=$IBM_ACPI/fan<br />
MAXTRIPPOINT=65<br />
MINTRIPPOINT=60<br />
TRIPPOINT=$MINTRIPPOINT<br />
<br />
echo fancontrol: Thermometer: $THERMOMETER, Fan: $FAN<br />
echo fancontrol: Current `cat $THERMOMETER`<br />
echo fancontrol: Controlling temperatures between $MINTRIPPOINT and $MAXTRIPPOINT degrees.<br />
<br />
# Make sure the fan is turned on when the script crashes or is killed<br />
trap "echo enable > $FAN; exit 0" HUP KILL INT ABRT STOP QUIT SEGV TERM<br />
<br />
while [ 1 ];<br />
do<br />
command=enable<br />
temperatures=`sed s/temperatures:// < $THERMOMETER`<br />
result=<br />
for temp in $temperatures<br />
do<br />
test $temp -le $TRIPPOINT && result=$result.Ok<br />
done<br />
if [ "$result" = ".Ok.Ok.Ok.Ok.Ok.Ok.Ok.Ok" ]; then<br />
command=disable<br />
TRIPPOINT=$MAXTRIPPOINT<br />
else<br />
command=enable<br />
TRIPPOINT=$MINTRIPPOINT<br />
fi<br />
echo $command > $FAN<br />
# Temperature ramps up quickly, so pick this not too large:<br />
sleep 5<br />
done<br />
<br />
----<br />
I added this script to the other ones. Don't wander about my talk edits, i didn't realize i was on the talk page. [[User:Wyrfel|Wyrfel]] 01:48, 13 Aug 2005 (CEST)<br />
----<br />
<br />
== X41 ==<br />
<br />
Same fan problem here on the X41. Once it starts it won't stop (unless it is _very_ cold outside). Undervolting the CPU doesn't help - still the same problem.<br />
<br />
== Fan speed control? ==<br />
<br />
Only the X31 and X40 have an ACPI method for controlling the FAN speed (this is why ibm_acpi provides this functionality just for these models).<br />
<br />
What will happen if we take the "FANS" method from the [http://acpi.sourceforge.net/dsdt/view.php?id=219 X40 DSDT], paste it into a iasl-disassembled DSDT of (say) a T43, recompile it and [http://gaugusch.at/kernel.shtml tell the kernel] to use the patched DSDT? ibm_acpi will present the functionality, but it may or may not work.<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 16:16, 28 Sep 2005 (CEST)<br />
<br />
Any risk of damaging the hardware when doing this? E.g. what does occur if the system overheats - will the CPU be destroyed are does it automatically switch of? As I've just bought a new X41 I don't want to take any stupid risks - but otherwise I'd say let's try it out.<br />
<br />
--gst Thu Sep 29 18:14:13 CEST 2005<br />
<br />
I think Intel CPUs have some built-in thermal protection, but I'd hate to test it. And of course, any fiddling with the hardware at this level might damage it. That said, when the CPU is mostly idle it keeps a reasonable temperature even when the fan is disabled, so as long as you keep an eye on both the CPU usage meter and /proc/acpi/ibm/thermal, things should be pretty safe temperature-wise. For extra safety you can force the CPU to its lowest speed via {{path|/sys/devices/system/cpu/cpu0/cpufreq/scaling_max_freq}}.<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 18:33, 29 Sep 2005 (CEST)<br />
<br />
== Further discussion ==<br />
<br />
I've just found a very interesting thread regarding the same issue on HP notebooks. IMO it provides many insight information about heat/fan problems in general, the URL is: http://forums1.itrc.hp.com/service/forums/questionanswer.do?threadId=853249<br />
Especially the posts by the HP engineer "Andy Fisher" are very interesting. IBM should be able to provide the same BIOS fix as HP did (maybe I should have bought an HP notebook instead of a Thinkpad?).<br />
<br />
I've also contacted IBM/Lenovo support via the website about the fan issue. Maybe it helps when others do this as well (especially people who bought larger quantities) so that this issue is taken serious by Lenovo. Is there already any official response to this problem?<br />
<br />
--gst Thu Sep 29 19:40:34 CEST 2005<br />
----<br />
<br />
Two of the changes mentioned by the HP engineer make perfect sense here: raise the low trip points and make speed transition gradual. Oh, and get rid of the annoying beat pattern (a brief speed pulse every few seconds) it sometimes gets into!<br />
<br />
But from our perspective, what would probably be best is to do the whole thing in software, providing the flexibility for personal preferences and smart decisions. The hardware would only enforce emergency override or throttle/shutdown for extreme temperatures. Then we could do cute things like having a software daemon lower the thresholds in a noisy environment (as judged using the built-in microphone) or when the laptop is on the user's lap (as judged by the built-in accelometers).<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 18:47, 30 Sep 2005 (CEST)<br />
<br />
I noticed that on my T43 the fan is usually in one of two modes, low speed (around 3300 RPM, triggered around CPU=47deg) and medium speed (around 4100 RPM, can't figure out the trip condition). The former is nearly inaudible, but the latter is quite noticable in the absense of strong background noises.<br />
<br />
Now, the problem is that once it has tripped into medium speed, it usually never comes back to low speed until the next reboot. So once it happens, to quiet things down I can only run one of the fan-disabling scripts given here. But with a disabled fan the T43 is not thermally stable, so it will spend its time moving back and forth between the hysteresis thresholds, i.e., toggling between 4100 RPM and 0 RPM every few minutes. This is quite silly and annoying, when staying at low speed would be both more stable and more quiet.<br />
<br />
I hope someone will find a way to control the fan speed, or at least to reset the embedded controller's hysteresis state.<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 10:29, 6 Oct 2005 (CEST)<br />
<br />
When you do changes to e.g. the Energy Schema in Windows or you eject the Thinkpad of the Docking Station it seems that the controllers state is rest. At least on the X41 the fan does stop until it reaches the threshold to start some minutes later. So it should be doable. --85.124.171.70<br />
<br />
That's good. But just like a bunch of other functions (e.g., controlling the battery charge threshold), it probably uses low-level undocumented proprietary interfaces which are very hard to figure out without the help of IBM/Lenovo, who are in denial about the whole thing. --[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 01:40, 16 Oct 2005 (CEST)<br />
<br />
----<br />
<br />
== Works fine with APM instead of ACPI? ==<br />
<br />
On my X41 the fan starts after about 10 minutes of use and doesn't stop (until it is rather cold in my room - and even then it runs most of the time ;) A friend of mine who has a X41 too (though another model) and who does use NetBSD and APM doesn't experience this problem. He claims that the fan only comes up if the system is not idle. So either it is colder in his room, the X41 model which he has doesn't have this flaw or APM does use different tresholds than ACPI.<br />
<br />
* Then why not just try the {{bootparm|acpi|off}} kernel parameter and see what happens? --[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 18:14, 30 Sep 2005 (CEST)<br />
<br />
I currently don't have physical access to the X41. Will try in a few days.<br />
<br />
== Rewiring the fan? ==<br />
<br />
Since IBM/Lenovo shows no intention of fixing their embedded controller firmware or releasing its specs, how about getting the embedded controller out of the loop? I'd be happy as a clam if my fan was hard-wired to work at a constant 3000RPM, with temperatures kept at bay in software through CPU frequenty control.<br />
<br />
Assuming the fan has the standard 3-wire connector, we can probaby keep the sensor and ground wires untouched, and rewire the positive wire to some nearby current source of appropriate voltage (through a resistor, for fine-tuning). The trick would be to find an easily tappable source that can handle an extra 2W and has the appropriate voltage (i.e., just slightly higher than what the fan needs to rotate at that RPM, so we don't waste too much energy in the resistor). Any idea what are the typical fan voltages and what would be an appropriate hookup point?<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 01:59, 16 Oct 2005 (CEST)<br />
----<br />
<br />
== Secret sensor and the cause of fan always on ==<br />
<br />
On my {{T43}}, ecdump offsets 0xC0-0xC2 seem to include 3 more temperature sensors that are not seen in {{path|/proc/acpi/ibm/thermal}}:<br />
# cat /proc/acpi/ibm/thermal; <br />
temperatures: 44 41 33 42 33 -128 30 -128<br />
# perl -ne 'm/^EC 0xc0: .(..) .(..) .(..) / or next; print hex($1)." ".hex($2)." ".hex($3)."\n"' < /proc/acpi/ibm/ecdump<br />
40 48 43<br />
<br />
Note the "48" entry (EC offset 0xC1). Something's pretty hot even at full full speed (level 7, 4700RPM). This sensor increases very quickly when the system starts (in fact, faster than anything else when the CPU is undervolted and [[fglrx]] is in maximum powersaving).<br />
<br />
Now, note this: the fan kicks up from low speed to medium speed whenever this sensor reaches 46 degrees, even if no other sensor changes; and this seems to usually be the first trigger encountered. Moreover, this sensor hovers around 47-48 degrees even on an idle machine. Taken together, '''this fully explains the "fan always on" behavior: a previously-unnoticed sensor that's always hot.'''<br />
<br />
Any idea what this sensor is? It seems correlated with WiFi: there's a 2deg difference when I toggle {{path|/sys/bus/pci/drivers/ipw2200/*/rf_kill}} (without ever being associated so this shouldn't affect anything else), and heavy WiFi data transfer increases temperature by several more degrees. This suggests the sensor is located in or close to the mini-PCI slot (i.e., under the touchpad). That region is indeed often hot to the touch. But why would the mini-PCI slot get so hot? Could it be the southbridge, which sits under the mini-PCI slot with no heatsink and poor ventilation? Can anyone correlate this sensor other specific activity, or with blocking of specific ventilation holes, or with cooling of specific components? If it's the mini-PCI slot? The operating temperature of the Intel 2200BG is [ftp://download.intel.com/network/connectivity/resources/doc_library/tech_brief/2200bg_prodbrief.pdf 0-80 deg].<br />
<br />
Caveat: this is my experience with a {{T43}} after [[Pentium M undervolting and underclocking|undervolting]] the CPU and activating [[How to make use of Graphics Chips Power Management features|maximal GPU powersaving using fglrx]]. It could be that for other people, other components are the first to trigger. But either way, those are 3 temperature sensors we didn't know of and they're used by the Embedded Controller's algorithm.<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 16:20, 20 Nov 2005 (CET)<br />
----<br />
<br />
== Observations about the Secret Sensors ==<br />
<br />
At the moment I am experimenting with controlling the fan on Windows XP with a self written tool on a {{T43}} (Model 2668 97G). Having found the information about the secret sensors here I built these into the program and it seems that after starting my cooled (placed outside) {{T43}} the 0xC1 sensor indeed rises fastest but also cools down quite quicky especially if also the CPU is cool. I have seen it hotter than the CPU but not much cooler, so probably it is a small chip connected to the colling element of the CPU.<br />
<br />
The values at 0xC0 and 0xC2 also seem to show temperature values here, while 0xC4 is always at 128.<br />
<br />
First experiments indicate that as long as all the temperature value are below 43°C the Thinkpad comes up with no fan and stays that way. (The fan control register at EC offset 0x2F set to 0x80, see the bottom of the [[patch for controlling fan speed]] page for a description of this register). If 43°C are reached on the 0xC1 sensor, the fan kicks in with low speed while 43°C on the CPU do not activate the fan. With regard to the CPU the kick-in seems to be around 48°C.<br />
<br />
Once the fan is on, it goes off again if all the seonsors drop to the area of 38°C or lower (the value may not be precise). But it hardly happens on it's own, for tests I placed it outside in cold weather.<br />
<br />
On [http://forum.thinkpads.com/ forums.thinkpad.com] is a ([http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=14580http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=14580 discussion]) from users who experimented with physically cooling the North- and Southbridge without success. In a different thread there a user claimed that he worked with a couple of Thinkpads and silenced them by turning off unused devices, WLAN being among them.<br />
<br />
With the XP WLAN device disabled the temperature on 0xC1 stays around 41°C here even if there is heavy activity on the CPU. It rises as soon as the WLAN device is enabled but hardly goes any hotter than 44°C. But I also could not make it go hot at all running on battery. And the heat reading there somehow more or less follows the value of the CPU.<br />
<br />
Bottom line on my {{T43}} (2668 97G): Fan kicks in for CPU around 48°C or 0xC1 at 43°C and then never goes off again unless you use external cooling. 0xC1 sensor could to be related to WLAN (I'm not really sure about it) and/or is probably placed near the CPU. It could also have something to do with running the machine no AC rather than battery.<br />
<br />
<br />
-- Shimdoax - 2005-11-27</div>212.34.172.148https://www.thinkwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Problem_with_fan_noise&diff=12580Talk:Problem with fan noise2005-11-27T14:59:52Z<p>212.34.172.148: /* Observations about the Secret Sensors */</p>
<hr />
<div>== Problem with fan noise on R51 1829 L7G (ATI M9) ==<br />
<br />
On my R51 the fan is behaving like this:<br />
<br />
* > 45C -> fan on;<br />
* < 38C -> fan off.<br />
<br />
By using cpufreq + laptop_mode + Xorg DynamicClocks + WiFi power management, I get the fan stopped time to time, but only for 3 minutes time (transition from 38 C -> 45 C). The cooling down cycle is taking 20 minutes in the best case.<br />
<br />
I knew about the 'ibm_acpi experimental=1' trick, but in my opinion this is not very useful since nobody can guarantee that a temperature greater then 45 C will not damage the laptop and in the same time the transition time is very short (the laptop gets hot fast without fan).<br />
<br />
== Thinkpad T42 Radeon Mobility M7 ==<br />
<br />
When Xorg is running, the fan is always on and pretty loud !<br />
Setting DynamicClocks does not help<br />
<br />
it's clear that the GPU is the problem on the thinkpad :<br />
<br />
after 10minutes with the fan off<br />
temperatures: 44 47 33 52 32 -128 24 -128<br />
<br />
1: CPU<br />
2: Mini PCI Module<br />
3: HDD<br />
4: GPU<br />
5: Battery<br />
6: N/A<br />
7: Battery<br />
8: N/A<br />
<br />
Controlling the fan speed would be really cool !<br />
<br />
What is the maximum temperature not to cross ?<br />
----<br />
Word on the 'net is that 85 degrees is the max operating temp for most of the Intel chips. I've seen some high 70's all the time (just put it on carpet for awhile and play some quake3 :). I wouldn't let your processor get much higher than 85...<br />
<br />
----<br />
Older versions of xorg (i.e. 6.7.0) don't seem to be able to use the DynamicClocks option although it's set in the xorg.conf. Search the log to find out if it's really used.<br />
<br />
== Thinkpad R32 with Radeon Mobility M6 ==<br />
<br />
Updating xorg-x11 from 6.7.0 to 6.8.2 and using Speedstep (with the ondemand module in this case) helped cooling the system down significantly:<br />
<br />
* before updating the CPU was ~62 C in idle state, and got very near the critical temperature (72 C) during heavy load - I even got some freezes because of the heat ;)<br />
* after the update the CPU is ~54 C in idle state, and still gets to about 68 C while under heavy load<br />
<br />
The second sensor (which may be the GPU) is somehow fixed to 50 C (maybe a bug?)<br />
<br />
The fan on the R32 is behaving like this:<br />
<br />
* > 61 -> fan in state 2 (quite noisy)<br />
* < 55 -> fan in state 1 (less noisy :) )<br />
<br />
But I remember using my old SuSE distribution with kernel 2.4.16, apm and some old x11 version the fan actually stopped completely from time to time.<br />
<br />
Concerning the maximum temperature of the CPU, I found that the critical temperature on the R32 for the CPU sensor is 72 C<br />
(using {{cmdroot|cat /proc/acpi/thermal_zone/THM0/trip_points }} )<br />
<br />
== Fan Control script: more save version ==<br />
<br />
ibm_acpi works well on my R50 and R51. But to rely on it completely, I modified the script in two ways:<br />
<br />
1. It catches verious signals and turns the fan on before it quits<br />
<br />
2. It turns off the fan under very strict conditions, leaving it on when unexpected errors occur.<br />
<br />
Here is my script:<br />
<br />
#!/bin/sh<br />
<br />
# july 2005 Erik Groeneveld, erik@cq2.nl<br />
# More conservatiev and saver version<br />
# It make sure the fan is on in case of errors<br />
# and only turns it off when all temps are ok.<br />
<br />
IBM_ACPI=/proc/acpi/ibm<br />
THERMOMETER=$IBM_ACPI/thermal<br />
FAN=$IBM_ACPI/fan<br />
MAXTRIPPOINT=65<br />
MINTRIPPOINT=60<br />
TRIPPOINT=$MINTRIPPOINT<br />
<br />
echo fancontrol: Thermometer: $THERMOMETER, Fan: $FAN<br />
echo fancontrol: Current `cat $THERMOMETER`<br />
echo fancontrol: Controlling temperatures between $MINTRIPPOINT and $MAXTRIPPOINT degrees.<br />
<br />
# Make sure the fan is turned on when the script crashes or is killed<br />
trap "echo enable > $FAN; exit 0" HUP KILL INT ABRT STOP QUIT SEGV TERM<br />
<br />
while [ 1 ];<br />
do<br />
command=enable<br />
temperatures=`sed s/temperatures:// < $THERMOMETER`<br />
result=<br />
for temp in $temperatures<br />
do<br />
test $temp -le $TRIPPOINT && result=$result.Ok<br />
done<br />
if [ "$result" = ".Ok.Ok.Ok.Ok.Ok.Ok.Ok.Ok" ]; then<br />
command=disable<br />
TRIPPOINT=$MAXTRIPPOINT<br />
else<br />
command=enable<br />
TRIPPOINT=$MINTRIPPOINT<br />
fi<br />
echo $command > $FAN<br />
# Temperature ramps up quickly, so pick this not too large:<br />
sleep 5<br />
done<br />
<br />
----<br />
I added this script to the other ones. Don't wander about my talk edits, i didn't realize i was on the talk page. [[User:Wyrfel|Wyrfel]] 01:48, 13 Aug 2005 (CEST)<br />
----<br />
<br />
== X41 ==<br />
<br />
Same fan problem here on the X41. Once it starts it won't stop (unless it is _very_ cold outside). Undervolting the CPU doesn't help - still the same problem.<br />
<br />
== Fan speed control? ==<br />
<br />
Only the X31 and X40 have an ACPI method for controlling the FAN speed (this is why ibm_acpi provides this functionality just for these models).<br />
<br />
What will happen if we take the "FANS" method from the [http://acpi.sourceforge.net/dsdt/view.php?id=219 X40 DSDT], paste it into a iasl-disassembled DSDT of (say) a T43, recompile it and [http://gaugusch.at/kernel.shtml tell the kernel] to use the patched DSDT? ibm_acpi will present the functionality, but it may or may not work.<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 16:16, 28 Sep 2005 (CEST)<br />
<br />
Any risk of damaging the hardware when doing this? E.g. what does occur if the system overheats - will the CPU be destroyed are does it automatically switch of? As I've just bought a new X41 I don't want to take any stupid risks - but otherwise I'd say let's try it out.<br />
<br />
--gst Thu Sep 29 18:14:13 CEST 2005<br />
<br />
I think Intel CPUs have some built-in thermal protection, but I'd hate to test it. And of course, any fiddling with the hardware at this level might damage it. That said, when the CPU is mostly idle it keeps a reasonable temperature even when the fan is disabled, so as long as you keep an eye on both the CPU usage meter and /proc/acpi/ibm/thermal, things should be pretty safe temperature-wise. For extra safety you can force the CPU to its lowest speed via {{path|/sys/devices/system/cpu/cpu0/cpufreq/scaling_max_freq}}.<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 18:33, 29 Sep 2005 (CEST)<br />
<br />
== Further discussion ==<br />
<br />
I've just found a very interesting thread regarding the same issue on HP notebooks. IMO it provides many insight information about heat/fan problems in general, the URL is: http://forums1.itrc.hp.com/service/forums/questionanswer.do?threadId=853249<br />
Especially the posts by the HP engineer "Andy Fisher" are very interesting. IBM should be able to provide the same BIOS fix as HP did (maybe I should have bought an HP notebook instead of a Thinkpad?).<br />
<br />
I've also contacted IBM/Lenovo support via the website about the fan issue. Maybe it helps when others do this as well (especially people who bought larger quantities) so that this issue is taken serious by Lenovo. Is there already any official response to this problem?<br />
<br />
--gst Thu Sep 29 19:40:34 CEST 2005<br />
----<br />
<br />
Two of the changes mentioned by the HP engineer make perfect sense here: raise the low trip points and make speed transition gradual. Oh, and get rid of the annoying beat pattern (a brief speed pulse every few seconds) it sometimes gets into!<br />
<br />
But from our perspective, what would probably be best is to do the whole thing in software, providing the flexibility for personal preferences and smart decisions. The hardware would only enforce emergency override or throttle/shutdown for extreme temperatures. Then we could do cute things like having a software daemon lower the thresholds in a noisy environment (as judged using the built-in microphone) or when the laptop is on the user's lap (as judged by the built-in accelometers).<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 18:47, 30 Sep 2005 (CEST)<br />
<br />
I noticed that on my T43 the fan is usually in one of two modes, low speed (around 3300 RPM, triggered around CPU=47deg) and medium speed (around 4100 RPM, can't figure out the trip condition). The former is nearly inaudible, but the latter is quite noticable in the absense of strong background noises.<br />
<br />
Now, the problem is that once it has tripped into medium speed, it usually never comes back to low speed until the next reboot. So once it happens, to quiet things down I can only run one of the fan-disabling scripts given here. But with a disabled fan the T43 is not thermally stable, so it will spend its time moving back and forth between the hysteresis thresholds, i.e., toggling between 4100 RPM and 0 RPM every few minutes. This is quite silly and annoying, when staying at low speed would be both more stable and more quiet.<br />
<br />
I hope someone will find a way to control the fan speed, or at least to reset the embedded controller's hysteresis state.<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 10:29, 6 Oct 2005 (CEST)<br />
<br />
When you do changes to e.g. the Energy Schema in Windows or you eject the Thinkpad of the Docking Station it seems that the controllers state is rest. At least on the X41 the fan does stop until it reaches the threshold to start some minutes later. So it should be doable. --85.124.171.70<br />
<br />
That's good. But just like a bunch of other functions (e.g., controlling the battery charge threshold), it probably uses low-level undocumented proprietary interfaces which are very hard to figure out without the help of IBM/Lenovo, who are in denial about the whole thing. --[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 01:40, 16 Oct 2005 (CEST)<br />
<br />
----<br />
<br />
== Works fine with APM instead of ACPI? ==<br />
<br />
On my X41 the fan starts after about 10 minutes of use and doesn't stop (until it is rather cold in my room - and even then it runs most of the time ;) A friend of mine who has a X41 too (though another model) and who does use NetBSD and APM doesn't experience this problem. He claims that the fan only comes up if the system is not idle. So either it is colder in his room, the X41 model which he has doesn't have this flaw or APM does use different tresholds than ACPI.<br />
<br />
* Then why not just try the {{bootparm|acpi|off}} kernel parameter and see what happens? --[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 18:14, 30 Sep 2005 (CEST)<br />
<br />
I currently don't have physical access to the X41. Will try in a few days.<br />
<br />
== Rewiring the fan? ==<br />
<br />
Since IBM/Lenovo shows no intention of fixing their embedded controller firmware or releasing its specs, how about getting the embedded controller out of the loop? I'd be happy as a clam if my fan was hard-wired to work at a constant 3000RPM, with temperatures kept at bay in software through CPU frequenty control.<br />
<br />
Assuming the fan has the standard 3-wire connector, we can probaby keep the sensor and ground wires untouched, and rewire the positive wire to some nearby current source of appropriate voltage (through a resistor, for fine-tuning). The trick would be to find an easily tappable source that can handle an extra 2W and has the appropriate voltage (i.e., just slightly higher than what the fan needs to rotate at that RPM, so we don't waste too much energy in the resistor). Any idea what are the typical fan voltages and what would be an appropriate hookup point?<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 01:59, 16 Oct 2005 (CEST)<br />
----<br />
<br />
== Secret sensor and the cause of fan always on ==<br />
<br />
On my {{T43}}, ecdump offsets 0xC0-0xC2 seem to include 3 more temperature sensors that are not seen in {{path|/proc/acpi/ibm/thermal}}:<br />
# cat /proc/acpi/ibm/thermal; <br />
temperatures: 44 41 33 42 33 -128 30 -128<br />
# perl -ne 'm/^EC 0xc0: .(..) .(..) .(..) / or next; print hex($1)." ".hex($2)." ".hex($3)."\n"' < /proc/acpi/ibm/ecdump<br />
40 48 43<br />
<br />
Note the "48" entry (EC offset 0xC1). Something's pretty hot even at full full speed (level 7, 4700RPM). This sensor increases very quickly when the system starts (in fact, faster than anything else when the CPU is undervolted and [[fglrx]] is in maximum powersaving).<br />
<br />
Now, note this: the fan kicks up from low speed to medium speed whenever this sensor reaches 46 degrees, even if no other sensor changes; and this seems to usually be the first trigger encountered. Moreover, this sensor hovers around 47-48 degrees even on an idle machine. Taken together, '''this fully explains the "fan always on" behavior: a previously-unnoticed sensor that's always hot.'''<br />
<br />
Any idea what this sensor is? It seems correlated with WiFi: there's a 2deg difference when I toggle {{path|/sys/bus/pci/drivers/ipw2200/*/rf_kill}} (without ever being associated so this shouldn't affect anything else), and heavy WiFi data transfer increases temperature by several more degrees. This suggests the sensor is located in or close to the mini-PCI slot (i.e., under the touchpad). That region is indeed often hot to the touch. But why would the mini-PCI slot get so hot? Could it be the southbridge, which sits under the mini-PCI slot with no heatsink and poor ventilation? Can anyone correlate this sensor other specific activity, or with blocking of specific ventilation holes, or with cooling of specific components? If it's the mini-PCI slot? The operating temperature of the Intel 2200BG is [ftp://download.intel.com/network/connectivity/resources/doc_library/tech_brief/2200bg_prodbrief.pdf 0-80 deg].<br />
<br />
Caveat: this is my experience with a {{T43}} after [[Pentium M undervolting and underclocking|undervolting]] the CPU and activating [[How to make use of Graphics Chips Power Management features|maximal GPU powersaving using fglrx]]. It could be that for other people, other components are the first to trigger. But either way, those are 3 temperature sensors we didn't know of and they're used by the Embedded Controller's algorithm.<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 16:20, 20 Nov 2005 (CET)<br />
----<br />
<br />
== Observations about the Secret Sensors ==<br />
<br />
At the moment I am experimenting with controlling the fan on Windows XP with a self written tool on a {{T43}} (Model 2668 97G). Having found the information about the secret sensors here I built these into the program and it seems that after starting my cooled (placed outside) {{T43}} the 0xC1 sensor indeed rises fastest but also cools down quite quicky especially if also the CPU is cool. I have seen it hotter than the CPU but not much cooler, so probably it is a small chip connected to the colling element of the CPU.<br />
<br />
The values at 0xC0 and 0xC2 also seem to show temperature values here, while 0xC4 is always at 128.<br />
<br />
First experiments indicate that as long as all the temperature value are below 43°C the Thinkpad comes up with no fan and stays that way. (The fan control register at EC offset 0x2F set to 0x80, see the bottom of the [[patch for controlling fan speed]] page for a description of this register). If 43°C are reached on the 0xC1 sensor, the fan kicks in with low speed while 43°C on the CPU do not activate the fan. With regard to the CPU the kick-in seems to be around 48°C.<br />
<br />
Once the fan is on, it never goes off again.<br />
<br />
On [http://forum.thinkpads.com/ forums.thinkpad.com] is a ([http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=14580http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=14580 discussion]) from users who experimented with physically cooling the North- and Southbridge without success. In a different thread there a user claimed that he worked with a couple of Thinkpads and silenced them by turning off unused devices, WLAN being among them.<br />
<br />
With the XP WLAN device disabled the temperature on 0xC1 stays around 41°C here even if there is heavy activity on the CPU. It rises as soon as the WLAN device is enabled but hardly goes any hotter than 44°C.<br />
<br />
Bottom line on my {{T43}} (2668 97G): Fan kicks in for CPU around 48°C or 0xC1 at 43°C and then never goes off again. 0xC1 sensor seems to be related to WLAN.<br />
<br />
<br />
-- Shimdoax - 2005-11-27</div>212.34.172.148https://www.thinkwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Problem_with_fan_noise&diff=12609Problem with fan noise2005-11-27T14:55:41Z<p>212.34.172.148: /* Always on problem: */</p>
<hr />
<div>Information about the fan noise problem in Thinkpad models from 2003/2004/2005.<br />
<br />
==Problem description==<br />
<br />
There seem to be two different occurances of the problem (or two different <br />
<br />
===Acceleration (pulsing) problem:===<br />
The Thinkpad fan briefly accelerates in regular intervals every few seconds, causing an annoying periodic pulse noise.<br />
<br />
See [http://lophiomys.gmxhome.de/Thinkpad_R50_Periodic_Fan_Noise.html here] for audio recordings of this noise on ThinkPad {{R50}} and {{R51}}.<br />
<br />
===Always-on problem:===<br />
The Fan is always on, even though the processor is rather cool.<br />
<br />
==Affected Models==<br />
<br />
===Acceleration (pulsing) problem:===<br />
*ThinkPad {{600E}}<br />
*ThinkPad {{R40}}<br />
*ThinkPad {{T40}}, {{T40p}}, {{T41}}, {{T42}}(?), {{T43}}<br />
<br />
===Always-on problem:===<br />
*ThinkPad {{600X}}<br />
*ThinkPad {{770X}}<br />
*ThinkPad {{A31p}}<br />
*ThinkPad {{R32}}, {{R50}}, {{R50p}}, {{R51}}, {{R52}}<br />
*ThinkPad {{T40}}, {{T40p}}, {{T41}}, {{T41p}}, {{T42}}, {{T42p}}, {{T43}}, {{T43p}}<br />
*ThinkPad {{X32}}, {{X40}}, {{X41}}<br />
<br />
==Affected Operating Systems==<br />
<br />
===Acceleration (pulsing) problem:===<br />
*Linux, all flavours<br />
<br />
===Always-on problem:===<br />
*Linux, all flavours<br />
*FreeBSD 5.3<br />
*OpenBSD 3.7 (Tested with X40)<br />
*Windows XP<br />
*Windows 2000 pro<br />
<br />
==Status==<br />
<br />
===Acceleration (pulsing) problem:===<br />
The pulsing seems to be triggered by the embedded controller when it monitors the fan speed and adjusts the fan control accordingly every few seconds.<br />
<br />
For some models, IBM released an update to the embedded controller program that seems to at least partially solve this problem:<br />
<br />
Version 3.03 - 1RHT70WW<br />
NOTE: This version of Embedded Controller Program will only work with BIOS Version 3.06f (or higher).<br />
* (Fix) Reduced Fan noise in some models.<br />
<br />
The update can be found here: http://www-306.ibm.com/pc/support/site.wss/document.do?lndocid=MIGR-50279<br />
<br />
For other models (e.g., ThinkPad {{T43}}), there is a software workaround (see below).<br />
<br />
===Always-on problem:===<br />
The problem is yet unsolved. But see the partial fix below.<br />
<br />
IBM made a statement regarding this on their homepage:<br />
http://www-307.ibm.com/pc/support/site.wss/MIGR-56504.html<br />
<br />
<br />
==Solutions==<br />
<br />
===Acceleration problem:===<br />
<br />
====Replacing the fan====<br />
Some people reported that they replaced the original fan against one of a similar notebook without the problem has worked for them, i.e. changing a {{T41}}s fan against one from a {{T41p}}.<br />
<br />
====BIOS upgrade====<br />
For relevant models, you can try upgrading your embedded controller program to version 3.03 or newer.<br />
<br />
The update can be found here: http://www-306.ibm.com/pc/support/site.wss/document.do?lndocid=MIGR-50279<br />
<br />
====Software workaround====<br />
The problem can be solved through appropriate modulation of the embedded controller, using an [[ACPI fan control script#Variable speed control scripts|ACPI fan control script]].<br />
<br />
===Always on problem:===<br />
<br />
Generally, this problem is triggered by heating due to high power consumption. See [[How to reduce power consumption]].<br />
<br />
<br />
It seems like for some people a combination of enabling dynamic frequency scaling and using the most recent radeon drivers (from xorg 6.8.x) with the DynamicClocks option enabled helped lowing the fan rotation and hence making it more quiet.<br />
<br />
Also the fglrx driver from ATI is said to show the same effect when used together with dynamic frequency scaling.<br />
<br />
On a 770X the fan can be fully controlled through ACPI. Thermal Zone THM5 (possibly the battery/charging circuit, it's definitely warmer when using 5v PCMCIA cards and AC) triggers it to turn on and not ever off by design. Can be solved by a custom DSDT, which also makes use of the variable-speed features of the fan (will release this once I've finished tweaking and testing it).<br />
<br />
I can confirm that on my R51, the graphics card seems to be the problem. The fan keeps running most of the time even with AC on, but even though I activated DynamicClocks (with the radeon driver), I can see in /proc/acpi/ibm/thermal that the GPU (4th value) is at 52-53°. The fan stops running as soon as the temperature gets down to 50 degrees and starts again at 53. While debugging, I seemed(!) to be able to reduce the temperature together with the resolution (e.g. "xrandr -s 2" to get from 1400x1050 to 1024x768) or by switching off the graphics with "xset dpms force off". The bottom line is that the below "partial fix" won't work because the GPU temperature is the problem.<br />
<br />
The GPU also seems to be the culprit on the t43p. Even with the fan always on (with speeds of around 4K reported in /proc/acpi/ibm/fan), the temperature never drops below 55. This is with the Xorg driver and DynamicClocks=on. With the ATI's fglrx driver, the GPU temp seems slightly higher (although I haven't performed a careful comparison). Without the fan, the temperature very quickly climbs to above 60. <br />
<br />
With the Pentium M, CPU heat dissipation can be reduced through [[Pentium M undervolting and underclocking|undervolting and underclocking]].<br />
<br />
In addition to these in the discussion to this topic [http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/Talk:Problem_with_fan_noise] a user observed hidden temperature sensors. In the ACPI DSDT dump a {{T43}} reports 8 temp values at offset 0x78 (some of which may be off and yield a constant value of 0x80), but there are at least four more values at offset 0xC0 which from observation seem to show temperatures as well. One of these sensors (0xC1) could be tied to the WLAN and seem to trigger the fan at 43°C ({{T43}}, Windows XP). Also in regard to fan control registers, on [[patch for controlling fan speed]] is a description of the embedded controller byte at offset 0x2F which controls the fan behavior (T4X series).<br />
<br />
An extensive forum discussion of this problem for the ThinkPad {{T43}}/{{T43p}}, and possible hardware mods for thermal enhancement, appear [http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=14580http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=14580 here]. There users who had opened the machine reported uncooled Northbridge and Southbrige chips, having no physical connectino to the heat pipe. Building a hardware copper bridge to these did change the temperature characteristics but did not cure the "always on" problem. In an other discussion on that forum a user said that amongh other areas the WLAN chip may be responsible for generating extra heat and that disabling WLAN (among other unused devices) may help. <br />
<br />
====Partial fix====<br />
{{WARN|This circumvents the BIOS fan control, so be careful and use at your own risk! Don't toast your ThinkPad.}}<br />
<br />
When loading [[ibm-acpi]] v0.11 with experimental switch ({{cmdroot|1=modprobe ibm_acpi experimental=1}}), it is possible to read and write the status of fan:<br />
<br />
'''#cat /proc/acpi/ibm/fan'''<br />
status: enabled<br />
speed: 3580<br />
commands: enable, disable<br />
<br />
'''#echo disable > /proc/acpi/ibm/fan'''<br />
<br />
'''cat /proc/acpi/ibm/fan'''<br />
status: disabled<br />
speed: 0<br />
commands: enable, disable<br />
<br />
But the fan will then '''never''' wake up. So, we need a [[ACPI fan control script|small script]] witch is constantly checking the temperature and setting the fan on/off when needed.<br />
<br />
On my T41 (gentoo-sources-2.6.11.11 ) I noticed that after unloading the fan module the fan noise stopped. With the module loaded the fan was working even at very low cpu temperatures, without the module it's ok so far.<br />
<br />
====Improved partial fix====<br />
<br />
Some models allow for fine control of fan speed. An [[ACPI fan control script#Variable speed control scripts|ACPI fan control script]] can thus be used to override the firmware's fan algorithm with gentler version.<br />
<br />
Manual control can be done through the [[patch for controlling fan speed]], or even just with [[ibm-acpi]] (see instructions in the former):<br />
<br />
'''#cat /proc/acpi/ibm/fan'''<br />
status: enabled<br />
level: auto<br />
speed: 4219<br />
commands: enable, disable, level <level><br />
(<level> is 0-7, auto or disengaged)<br />
<br />
'''#echo level 2 > /proc/acpi/ibm/fan'''<br />
<br />
'''#cat /proc/acpi/ibm/fan'''<br />
status: enabled<br />
level: 2<br />
speed: 3142<br />
commands: enable, disable, level <level><br />
(<level> is 0-7, auto or disengaged)<br />
<br />
====Cleaning the fan====<br />
<br />
If your ThinkPad is old or has been exposed to dusty environment, it is possible that accumulated dirt on the fan and the heatsink cause abnormal behavior (though the problems have also been reported for brand new units). You can use a combination of a vacuum cleaner and an air dusting spray to clean things up from the outside. Bigger agglomerations of dust may require removing by tweezers through the openings in the fan grill. Getting to the fan itself from the inside is quite tricky and may require removing the LCD.<br />
<br />
After you clean things up, power on your ThinkPad. You should hear the fan start up for a bit when booting. If it does not, this means that the cleaning procedure has actually blocked the fan and your computer will overheat at some point (BIOS POST test does not appear to catch obstructed fans). Keep cleaning.</div>212.34.172.148https://www.thinkwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Problem_with_fan_noise&diff=12578Talk:Problem with fan noise2005-11-27T14:42:35Z<p>212.34.172.148: /* Observations about the Secret Sensors */</p>
<hr />
<div>== Problem with fan noise on R51 1829 L7G (ATI M9) ==<br />
<br />
On my R51 the fan is behaving like this:<br />
<br />
* > 45C -> fan on;<br />
* < 38C -> fan off.<br />
<br />
By using cpufreq + laptop_mode + Xorg DynamicClocks + WiFi power management, I get the fan stopped time to time, but only for 3 minutes time (transition from 38 C -> 45 C). The cooling down cycle is taking 20 minutes in the best case.<br />
<br />
I knew about the 'ibm_acpi experimental=1' trick, but in my opinion this is not very useful since nobody can guarantee that a temperature greater then 45 C will not damage the laptop and in the same time the transition time is very short (the laptop gets hot fast without fan).<br />
<br />
== Thinkpad T42 Radeon Mobility M7 ==<br />
<br />
When Xorg is running, the fan is always on and pretty loud !<br />
Setting DynamicClocks does not help<br />
<br />
it's clear that the GPU is the problem on the thinkpad :<br />
<br />
after 10minutes with the fan off<br />
temperatures: 44 47 33 52 32 -128 24 -128<br />
<br />
1: CPU<br />
2: Mini PCI Module<br />
3: HDD<br />
4: GPU<br />
5: Battery<br />
6: N/A<br />
7: Battery<br />
8: N/A<br />
<br />
Controlling the fan speed would be really cool !<br />
<br />
What is the maximum temperature not to cross ?<br />
----<br />
Word on the 'net is that 85 degrees is the max operating temp for most of the Intel chips. I've seen some high 70's all the time (just put it on carpet for awhile and play some quake3 :). I wouldn't let your processor get much higher than 85...<br />
<br />
----<br />
Older versions of xorg (i.e. 6.7.0) don't seem to be able to use the DynamicClocks option although it's set in the xorg.conf. Search the log to find out if it's really used.<br />
<br />
== Thinkpad R32 with Radeon Mobility M6 ==<br />
<br />
Updating xorg-x11 from 6.7.0 to 6.8.2 and using Speedstep (with the ondemand module in this case) helped cooling the system down significantly:<br />
<br />
* before updating the CPU was ~62 C in idle state, and got very near the critical temperature (72 C) during heavy load - I even got some freezes because of the heat ;)<br />
* after the update the CPU is ~54 C in idle state, and still gets to about 68 C while under heavy load<br />
<br />
The second sensor (which may be the GPU) is somehow fixed to 50 C (maybe a bug?)<br />
<br />
The fan on the R32 is behaving like this:<br />
<br />
* > 61 -> fan in state 2 (quite noisy)<br />
* < 55 -> fan in state 1 (less noisy :) )<br />
<br />
But I remember using my old SuSE distribution with kernel 2.4.16, apm and some old x11 version the fan actually stopped completely from time to time.<br />
<br />
Concerning the maximum temperature of the CPU, I found that the critical temperature on the R32 for the CPU sensor is 72 C<br />
(using {{cmdroot|cat /proc/acpi/thermal_zone/THM0/trip_points }} )<br />
<br />
== Fan Control script: more save version ==<br />
<br />
ibm_acpi works well on my R50 and R51. But to rely on it completely, I modified the script in two ways:<br />
<br />
1. It catches verious signals and turns the fan on before it quits<br />
<br />
2. It turns off the fan under very strict conditions, leaving it on when unexpected errors occur.<br />
<br />
Here is my script:<br />
<br />
#!/bin/sh<br />
<br />
# july 2005 Erik Groeneveld, erik@cq2.nl<br />
# More conservatiev and saver version<br />
# It make sure the fan is on in case of errors<br />
# and only turns it off when all temps are ok.<br />
<br />
IBM_ACPI=/proc/acpi/ibm<br />
THERMOMETER=$IBM_ACPI/thermal<br />
FAN=$IBM_ACPI/fan<br />
MAXTRIPPOINT=65<br />
MINTRIPPOINT=60<br />
TRIPPOINT=$MINTRIPPOINT<br />
<br />
echo fancontrol: Thermometer: $THERMOMETER, Fan: $FAN<br />
echo fancontrol: Current `cat $THERMOMETER`<br />
echo fancontrol: Controlling temperatures between $MINTRIPPOINT and $MAXTRIPPOINT degrees.<br />
<br />
# Make sure the fan is turned on when the script crashes or is killed<br />
trap "echo enable > $FAN; exit 0" HUP KILL INT ABRT STOP QUIT SEGV TERM<br />
<br />
while [ 1 ];<br />
do<br />
command=enable<br />
temperatures=`sed s/temperatures:// < $THERMOMETER`<br />
result=<br />
for temp in $temperatures<br />
do<br />
test $temp -le $TRIPPOINT && result=$result.Ok<br />
done<br />
if [ "$result" = ".Ok.Ok.Ok.Ok.Ok.Ok.Ok.Ok" ]; then<br />
command=disable<br />
TRIPPOINT=$MAXTRIPPOINT<br />
else<br />
command=enable<br />
TRIPPOINT=$MINTRIPPOINT<br />
fi<br />
echo $command > $FAN<br />
# Temperature ramps up quickly, so pick this not too large:<br />
sleep 5<br />
done<br />
<br />
----<br />
I added this script to the other ones. Don't wander about my talk edits, i didn't realize i was on the talk page. [[User:Wyrfel|Wyrfel]] 01:48, 13 Aug 2005 (CEST)<br />
----<br />
<br />
== X41 ==<br />
<br />
Same fan problem here on the X41. Once it starts it won't stop (unless it is _very_ cold outside). Undervolting the CPU doesn't help - still the same problem.<br />
<br />
== Fan speed control? ==<br />
<br />
Only the X31 and X40 have an ACPI method for controlling the FAN speed (this is why ibm_acpi provides this functionality just for these models).<br />
<br />
What will happen if we take the "FANS" method from the [http://acpi.sourceforge.net/dsdt/view.php?id=219 X40 DSDT], paste it into a iasl-disassembled DSDT of (say) a T43, recompile it and [http://gaugusch.at/kernel.shtml tell the kernel] to use the patched DSDT? ibm_acpi will present the functionality, but it may or may not work.<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 16:16, 28 Sep 2005 (CEST)<br />
<br />
Any risk of damaging the hardware when doing this? E.g. what does occur if the system overheats - will the CPU be destroyed are does it automatically switch of? As I've just bought a new X41 I don't want to take any stupid risks - but otherwise I'd say let's try it out.<br />
<br />
--gst Thu Sep 29 18:14:13 CEST 2005<br />
<br />
I think Intel CPUs have some built-in thermal protection, but I'd hate to test it. And of course, any fiddling with the hardware at this level might damage it. That said, when the CPU is mostly idle it keeps a reasonable temperature even when the fan is disabled, so as long as you keep an eye on both the CPU usage meter and /proc/acpi/ibm/thermal, things should be pretty safe temperature-wise. For extra safety you can force the CPU to its lowest speed via {{path|/sys/devices/system/cpu/cpu0/cpufreq/scaling_max_freq}}.<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 18:33, 29 Sep 2005 (CEST)<br />
<br />
== Further discussion ==<br />
<br />
I've just found a very interesting thread regarding the same issue on HP notebooks. IMO it provides many insight information about heat/fan problems in general, the URL is: http://forums1.itrc.hp.com/service/forums/questionanswer.do?threadId=853249<br />
Especially the posts by the HP engineer "Andy Fisher" are very interesting. IBM should be able to provide the same BIOS fix as HP did (maybe I should have bought an HP notebook instead of a Thinkpad?).<br />
<br />
I've also contacted IBM/Lenovo support via the website about the fan issue. Maybe it helps when others do this as well (especially people who bought larger quantities) so that this issue is taken serious by Lenovo. Is there already any official response to this problem?<br />
<br />
--gst Thu Sep 29 19:40:34 CEST 2005<br />
----<br />
<br />
Two of the changes mentioned by the HP engineer make perfect sense here: raise the low trip points and make speed transition gradual. Oh, and get rid of the annoying beat pattern (a brief speed pulse every few seconds) it sometimes gets into!<br />
<br />
But from our perspective, what would probably be best is to do the whole thing in software, providing the flexibility for personal preferences and smart decisions. The hardware would only enforce emergency override or throttle/shutdown for extreme temperatures. Then we could do cute things like having a software daemon lower the thresholds in a noisy environment (as judged using the built-in microphone) or when the laptop is on the user's lap (as judged by the built-in accelometers).<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 18:47, 30 Sep 2005 (CEST)<br />
<br />
I noticed that on my T43 the fan is usually in one of two modes, low speed (around 3300 RPM, triggered around CPU=47deg) and medium speed (around 4100 RPM, can't figure out the trip condition). The former is nearly inaudible, but the latter is quite noticable in the absense of strong background noises.<br />
<br />
Now, the problem is that once it has tripped into medium speed, it usually never comes back to low speed until the next reboot. So once it happens, to quiet things down I can only run one of the fan-disabling scripts given here. But with a disabled fan the T43 is not thermally stable, so it will spend its time moving back and forth between the hysteresis thresholds, i.e., toggling between 4100 RPM and 0 RPM every few minutes. This is quite silly and annoying, when staying at low speed would be both more stable and more quiet.<br />
<br />
I hope someone will find a way to control the fan speed, or at least to reset the embedded controller's hysteresis state.<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 10:29, 6 Oct 2005 (CEST)<br />
<br />
When you do changes to e.g. the Energy Schema in Windows or you eject the Thinkpad of the Docking Station it seems that the controllers state is rest. At least on the X41 the fan does stop until it reaches the threshold to start some minutes later. So it should be doable. --85.124.171.70<br />
<br />
That's good. But just like a bunch of other functions (e.g., controlling the battery charge threshold), it probably uses low-level undocumented proprietary interfaces which are very hard to figure out without the help of IBM/Lenovo, who are in denial about the whole thing. --[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 01:40, 16 Oct 2005 (CEST)<br />
<br />
----<br />
<br />
== Works fine with APM instead of ACPI? ==<br />
<br />
On my X41 the fan starts after about 10 minutes of use and doesn't stop (until it is rather cold in my room - and even then it runs most of the time ;) A friend of mine who has a X41 too (though another model) and who does use NetBSD and APM doesn't experience this problem. He claims that the fan only comes up if the system is not idle. So either it is colder in his room, the X41 model which he has doesn't have this flaw or APM does use different tresholds than ACPI.<br />
<br />
* Then why not just try the {{bootparm|acpi|off}} kernel parameter and see what happens? --[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 18:14, 30 Sep 2005 (CEST)<br />
<br />
I currently don't have physical access to the X41. Will try in a few days.<br />
<br />
== Rewiring the fan? ==<br />
<br />
Since IBM/Lenovo shows no intention of fixing their embedded controller firmware or releasing its specs, how about getting the embedded controller out of the loop? I'd be happy as a clam if my fan was hard-wired to work at a constant 3000RPM, with temperatures kept at bay in software through CPU frequenty control.<br />
<br />
Assuming the fan has the standard 3-wire connector, we can probaby keep the sensor and ground wires untouched, and rewire the positive wire to some nearby current source of appropriate voltage (through a resistor, for fine-tuning). The trick would be to find an easily tappable source that can handle an extra 2W and has the appropriate voltage (i.e., just slightly higher than what the fan needs to rotate at that RPM, so we don't waste too much energy in the resistor). Any idea what are the typical fan voltages and what would be an appropriate hookup point?<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 01:59, 16 Oct 2005 (CEST)<br />
----<br />
<br />
== Secret sensor and the cause of fan always on ==<br />
<br />
On my {{T43}}, ecdump offsets 0xC0-0xC2 seem to include 3 more temperature sensors that are not seen in {{path|/proc/acpi/ibm/thermal}}:<br />
# cat /proc/acpi/ibm/thermal; <br />
temperatures: 44 41 33 42 33 -128 30 -128<br />
# perl -ne 'm/^EC 0xc0: .(..) .(..) .(..) / or next; print hex($1)." ".hex($2)." ".hex($3)."\n"' < /proc/acpi/ibm/ecdump<br />
40 48 43<br />
<br />
Note the "48" entry (EC offset 0xC1). Something's pretty hot even at full full speed (level 7, 4700RPM). This sensor increases very quickly when the system starts (in fact, faster than anything else when the CPU is undervolted and [[fglrx]] is in maximum powersaving).<br />
<br />
Now, note this: the fan kicks up from low speed to medium speed whenever this sensor reaches 46 degrees, even if no other sensor changes; and this seems to usually be the first trigger encountered. Moreover, this sensor hovers around 47-48 degrees even on an idle machine. Taken together, '''this fully explains the "fan always on" behavior: a previously-unnoticed sensor that's always hot.'''<br />
<br />
Any idea what this sensor is? It seems correlated with WiFi: there's a 2deg difference when I toggle {{path|/sys/bus/pci/drivers/ipw2200/*/rf_kill}} (without ever being associated so this shouldn't affect anything else), and heavy WiFi data transfer increases temperature by several more degrees. This suggests the sensor is located in or close to the mini-PCI slot (i.e., under the touchpad). That region is indeed often hot to the touch. But why would the mini-PCI slot get so hot? Could it be the southbridge, which sits under the mini-PCI slot with no heatsink and poor ventilation? Can anyone correlate this sensor other specific activity, or with blocking of specific ventilation holes, or with cooling of specific components? If it's the mini-PCI slot? The operating temperature of the Intel 2200BG is [ftp://download.intel.com/network/connectivity/resources/doc_library/tech_brief/2200bg_prodbrief.pdf 0-80 deg].<br />
<br />
Caveat: this is my experience with a {{T43}} after [[Pentium M undervolting and underclocking|undervolting]] the CPU and activating [[How to make use of Graphics Chips Power Management features|maximal GPU powersaving using fglrx]]. It could be that for other people, other components are the first to trigger. But either way, those are 3 temperature sensors we didn't know of and they're used by the Embedded Controller's algorithm.<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 16:20, 20 Nov 2005 (CET)<br />
----<br />
<br />
== Observations about the Secret Sensors ==<br />
<br />
At the moment I am experimenting with controlling the fan on Windows XP with a self written tool on a {{T43}} (Model 2668 97G). Having found the information about the secret sensors here I built these into the program and it seems that after starting my cooled (placed outside) {{T43}} the 0xC1 sensor indeed rises fastest but also cools down quite quicky (down from 43°C to 37°C after just 4 minutes hibbernation, so I assume it's not tied to a large mass). The values at 0xC0 and 0xC2 also seem to show temperature values here, while 0xC4 is always at 128.<br />
<br />
First experiments indicate that as long as all the temperature value are below 43°C the Thinkpad comes up with no fan and stays that way. (The fan control register at EC offset 0x2F set to 0x80, see the bottom of the [[patch for controlling fan speed]] page for a description of this register). If 43°C are reached on the 0xC1 sensor, the fan kicks in with low speed while 43°C on the CPU do not activate the fan. With regard to the CPU the kick-in seems to be around 48°C.<br />
<br />
Once the fan is on, it never goes off again.<br />
<br />
On [http://forum.thinkpads.com/ forums.thinkpad.com] is a ([http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=14580http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=14580 discussion]) from users who experimented with physically cooling the North- and Southbridge without success. In a different thread there a user claimed that he worked with a couple of Thinkpads and silenced them by turning off unused devices, WLAN being among them.<br />
<br />
With the XP WLAN device disabled the temperature on 0xC1 stays around 41°C here even if there is heavy activity on the CPU. It rises as soon as the WLAN device is enabled but hardly goes any hotter than 44°C.<br />
<br />
Bottom line on my {{T43}} (2668 97G): Fan kicks in for CPU around 48°C or 0xC1 at 43°C and then never goes off again. 0xC1 sensor seems to be related to WLAN.<br />
<br />
<br />
-- Shimdoax - 2005-11-27</div>212.34.172.148https://www.thinkwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Problem_with_fan_noise&diff=12576Talk:Problem with fan noise2005-11-27T14:29:41Z<p>212.34.172.148: /* Observations about the Secret Sensors */</p>
<hr />
<div>== Problem with fan noise on R51 1829 L7G (ATI M9) ==<br />
<br />
On my R51 the fan is behaving like this:<br />
<br />
* > 45C -> fan on;<br />
* < 38C -> fan off.<br />
<br />
By using cpufreq + laptop_mode + Xorg DynamicClocks + WiFi power management, I get the fan stopped time to time, but only for 3 minutes time (transition from 38 C -> 45 C). The cooling down cycle is taking 20 minutes in the best case.<br />
<br />
I knew about the 'ibm_acpi experimental=1' trick, but in my opinion this is not very useful since nobody can guarantee that a temperature greater then 45 C will not damage the laptop and in the same time the transition time is very short (the laptop gets hot fast without fan).<br />
<br />
== Thinkpad T42 Radeon Mobility M7 ==<br />
<br />
When Xorg is running, the fan is always on and pretty loud !<br />
Setting DynamicClocks does not help<br />
<br />
it's clear that the GPU is the problem on the thinkpad :<br />
<br />
after 10minutes with the fan off<br />
temperatures: 44 47 33 52 32 -128 24 -128<br />
<br />
1: CPU<br />
2: Mini PCI Module<br />
3: HDD<br />
4: GPU<br />
5: Battery<br />
6: N/A<br />
7: Battery<br />
8: N/A<br />
<br />
Controlling the fan speed would be really cool !<br />
<br />
What is the maximum temperature not to cross ?<br />
----<br />
Word on the 'net is that 85 degrees is the max operating temp for most of the Intel chips. I've seen some high 70's all the time (just put it on carpet for awhile and play some quake3 :). I wouldn't let your processor get much higher than 85...<br />
<br />
----<br />
Older versions of xorg (i.e. 6.7.0) don't seem to be able to use the DynamicClocks option although it's set in the xorg.conf. Search the log to find out if it's really used.<br />
<br />
== Thinkpad R32 with Radeon Mobility M6 ==<br />
<br />
Updating xorg-x11 from 6.7.0 to 6.8.2 and using Speedstep (with the ondemand module in this case) helped cooling the system down significantly:<br />
<br />
* before updating the CPU was ~62 C in idle state, and got very near the critical temperature (72 C) during heavy load - I even got some freezes because of the heat ;)<br />
* after the update the CPU is ~54 C in idle state, and still gets to about 68 C while under heavy load<br />
<br />
The second sensor (which may be the GPU) is somehow fixed to 50 C (maybe a bug?)<br />
<br />
The fan on the R32 is behaving like this:<br />
<br />
* > 61 -> fan in state 2 (quite noisy)<br />
* < 55 -> fan in state 1 (less noisy :) )<br />
<br />
But I remember using my old SuSE distribution with kernel 2.4.16, apm and some old x11 version the fan actually stopped completely from time to time.<br />
<br />
Concerning the maximum temperature of the CPU, I found that the critical temperature on the R32 for the CPU sensor is 72 C<br />
(using {{cmdroot|cat /proc/acpi/thermal_zone/THM0/trip_points }} )<br />
<br />
== Fan Control script: more save version ==<br />
<br />
ibm_acpi works well on my R50 and R51. But to rely on it completely, I modified the script in two ways:<br />
<br />
1. It catches verious signals and turns the fan on before it quits<br />
<br />
2. It turns off the fan under very strict conditions, leaving it on when unexpected errors occur.<br />
<br />
Here is my script:<br />
<br />
#!/bin/sh<br />
<br />
# july 2005 Erik Groeneveld, erik@cq2.nl<br />
# More conservatiev and saver version<br />
# It make sure the fan is on in case of errors<br />
# and only turns it off when all temps are ok.<br />
<br />
IBM_ACPI=/proc/acpi/ibm<br />
THERMOMETER=$IBM_ACPI/thermal<br />
FAN=$IBM_ACPI/fan<br />
MAXTRIPPOINT=65<br />
MINTRIPPOINT=60<br />
TRIPPOINT=$MINTRIPPOINT<br />
<br />
echo fancontrol: Thermometer: $THERMOMETER, Fan: $FAN<br />
echo fancontrol: Current `cat $THERMOMETER`<br />
echo fancontrol: Controlling temperatures between $MINTRIPPOINT and $MAXTRIPPOINT degrees.<br />
<br />
# Make sure the fan is turned on when the script crashes or is killed<br />
trap "echo enable > $FAN; exit 0" HUP KILL INT ABRT STOP QUIT SEGV TERM<br />
<br />
while [ 1 ];<br />
do<br />
command=enable<br />
temperatures=`sed s/temperatures:// < $THERMOMETER`<br />
result=<br />
for temp in $temperatures<br />
do<br />
test $temp -le $TRIPPOINT && result=$result.Ok<br />
done<br />
if [ "$result" = ".Ok.Ok.Ok.Ok.Ok.Ok.Ok.Ok" ]; then<br />
command=disable<br />
TRIPPOINT=$MAXTRIPPOINT<br />
else<br />
command=enable<br />
TRIPPOINT=$MINTRIPPOINT<br />
fi<br />
echo $command > $FAN<br />
# Temperature ramps up quickly, so pick this not too large:<br />
sleep 5<br />
done<br />
<br />
----<br />
I added this script to the other ones. Don't wander about my talk edits, i didn't realize i was on the talk page. [[User:Wyrfel|Wyrfel]] 01:48, 13 Aug 2005 (CEST)<br />
----<br />
<br />
== X41 ==<br />
<br />
Same fan problem here on the X41. Once it starts it won't stop (unless it is _very_ cold outside). Undervolting the CPU doesn't help - still the same problem.<br />
<br />
== Fan speed control? ==<br />
<br />
Only the X31 and X40 have an ACPI method for controlling the FAN speed (this is why ibm_acpi provides this functionality just for these models).<br />
<br />
What will happen if we take the "FANS" method from the [http://acpi.sourceforge.net/dsdt/view.php?id=219 X40 DSDT], paste it into a iasl-disassembled DSDT of (say) a T43, recompile it and [http://gaugusch.at/kernel.shtml tell the kernel] to use the patched DSDT? ibm_acpi will present the functionality, but it may or may not work.<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 16:16, 28 Sep 2005 (CEST)<br />
<br />
Any risk of damaging the hardware when doing this? E.g. what does occur if the system overheats - will the CPU be destroyed are does it automatically switch of? As I've just bought a new X41 I don't want to take any stupid risks - but otherwise I'd say let's try it out.<br />
<br />
--gst Thu Sep 29 18:14:13 CEST 2005<br />
<br />
I think Intel CPUs have some built-in thermal protection, but I'd hate to test it. And of course, any fiddling with the hardware at this level might damage it. That said, when the CPU is mostly idle it keeps a reasonable temperature even when the fan is disabled, so as long as you keep an eye on both the CPU usage meter and /proc/acpi/ibm/thermal, things should be pretty safe temperature-wise. For extra safety you can force the CPU to its lowest speed via {{path|/sys/devices/system/cpu/cpu0/cpufreq/scaling_max_freq}}.<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 18:33, 29 Sep 2005 (CEST)<br />
<br />
== Further discussion ==<br />
<br />
I've just found a very interesting thread regarding the same issue on HP notebooks. IMO it provides many insight information about heat/fan problems in general, the URL is: http://forums1.itrc.hp.com/service/forums/questionanswer.do?threadId=853249<br />
Especially the posts by the HP engineer "Andy Fisher" are very interesting. IBM should be able to provide the same BIOS fix as HP did (maybe I should have bought an HP notebook instead of a Thinkpad?).<br />
<br />
I've also contacted IBM/Lenovo support via the website about the fan issue. Maybe it helps when others do this as well (especially people who bought larger quantities) so that this issue is taken serious by Lenovo. Is there already any official response to this problem?<br />
<br />
--gst Thu Sep 29 19:40:34 CEST 2005<br />
----<br />
<br />
Two of the changes mentioned by the HP engineer make perfect sense here: raise the low trip points and make speed transition gradual. Oh, and get rid of the annoying beat pattern (a brief speed pulse every few seconds) it sometimes gets into!<br />
<br />
But from our perspective, what would probably be best is to do the whole thing in software, providing the flexibility for personal preferences and smart decisions. The hardware would only enforce emergency override or throttle/shutdown for extreme temperatures. Then we could do cute things like having a software daemon lower the thresholds in a noisy environment (as judged using the built-in microphone) or when the laptop is on the user's lap (as judged by the built-in accelometers).<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 18:47, 30 Sep 2005 (CEST)<br />
<br />
I noticed that on my T43 the fan is usually in one of two modes, low speed (around 3300 RPM, triggered around CPU=47deg) and medium speed (around 4100 RPM, can't figure out the trip condition). The former is nearly inaudible, but the latter is quite noticable in the absense of strong background noises.<br />
<br />
Now, the problem is that once it has tripped into medium speed, it usually never comes back to low speed until the next reboot. So once it happens, to quiet things down I can only run one of the fan-disabling scripts given here. But with a disabled fan the T43 is not thermally stable, so it will spend its time moving back and forth between the hysteresis thresholds, i.e., toggling between 4100 RPM and 0 RPM every few minutes. This is quite silly and annoying, when staying at low speed would be both more stable and more quiet.<br />
<br />
I hope someone will find a way to control the fan speed, or at least to reset the embedded controller's hysteresis state.<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 10:29, 6 Oct 2005 (CEST)<br />
<br />
When you do changes to e.g. the Energy Schema in Windows or you eject the Thinkpad of the Docking Station it seems that the controllers state is rest. At least on the X41 the fan does stop until it reaches the threshold to start some minutes later. So it should be doable. --85.124.171.70<br />
<br />
That's good. But just like a bunch of other functions (e.g., controlling the battery charge threshold), it probably uses low-level undocumented proprietary interfaces which are very hard to figure out without the help of IBM/Lenovo, who are in denial about the whole thing. --[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 01:40, 16 Oct 2005 (CEST)<br />
<br />
----<br />
<br />
== Works fine with APM instead of ACPI? ==<br />
<br />
On my X41 the fan starts after about 10 minutes of use and doesn't stop (until it is rather cold in my room - and even then it runs most of the time ;) A friend of mine who has a X41 too (though another model) and who does use NetBSD and APM doesn't experience this problem. He claims that the fan only comes up if the system is not idle. So either it is colder in his room, the X41 model which he has doesn't have this flaw or APM does use different tresholds than ACPI.<br />
<br />
* Then why not just try the {{bootparm|acpi|off}} kernel parameter and see what happens? --[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 18:14, 30 Sep 2005 (CEST)<br />
<br />
I currently don't have physical access to the X41. Will try in a few days.<br />
<br />
== Rewiring the fan? ==<br />
<br />
Since IBM/Lenovo shows no intention of fixing their embedded controller firmware or releasing its specs, how about getting the embedded controller out of the loop? I'd be happy as a clam if my fan was hard-wired to work at a constant 3000RPM, with temperatures kept at bay in software through CPU frequenty control.<br />
<br />
Assuming the fan has the standard 3-wire connector, we can probaby keep the sensor and ground wires untouched, and rewire the positive wire to some nearby current source of appropriate voltage (through a resistor, for fine-tuning). The trick would be to find an easily tappable source that can handle an extra 2W and has the appropriate voltage (i.e., just slightly higher than what the fan needs to rotate at that RPM, so we don't waste too much energy in the resistor). Any idea what are the typical fan voltages and what would be an appropriate hookup point?<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 01:59, 16 Oct 2005 (CEST)<br />
----<br />
<br />
== Secret sensor and the cause of fan always on ==<br />
<br />
On my {{T43}}, ecdump offsets 0xC0-0xC2 seem to include 3 more temperature sensors that are not seen in {{path|/proc/acpi/ibm/thermal}}:<br />
# cat /proc/acpi/ibm/thermal; <br />
temperatures: 44 41 33 42 33 -128 30 -128<br />
# perl -ne 'm/^EC 0xc0: .(..) .(..) .(..) / or next; print hex($1)." ".hex($2)." ".hex($3)."\n"' < /proc/acpi/ibm/ecdump<br />
40 48 43<br />
<br />
Note the "48" entry (EC offset 0xC1). Something's pretty hot even at full full speed (level 7, 4700RPM). This sensor increases very quickly when the system starts (in fact, faster than anything else when the CPU is undervolted and [[fglrx]] is in maximum powersaving).<br />
<br />
Now, note this: the fan kicks up from low speed to medium speed whenever this sensor reaches 46 degrees, even if no other sensor changes; and this seems to usually be the first trigger encountered. Moreover, this sensor hovers around 47-48 degrees even on an idle machine. Taken together, '''this fully explains the "fan always on" behavior: a previously-unnoticed sensor that's always hot.'''<br />
<br />
Any idea what this sensor is? It seems correlated with WiFi: there's a 2deg difference when I toggle {{path|/sys/bus/pci/drivers/ipw2200/*/rf_kill}} (without ever being associated so this shouldn't affect anything else), and heavy WiFi data transfer increases temperature by several more degrees. This suggests the sensor is located in or close to the mini-PCI slot (i.e., under the touchpad). That region is indeed often hot to the touch. But why would the mini-PCI slot get so hot? Could it be the southbridge, which sits under the mini-PCI slot with no heatsink and poor ventilation? Can anyone correlate this sensor other specific activity, or with blocking of specific ventilation holes, or with cooling of specific components? If it's the mini-PCI slot? The operating temperature of the Intel 2200BG is [ftp://download.intel.com/network/connectivity/resources/doc_library/tech_brief/2200bg_prodbrief.pdf 0-80 deg].<br />
<br />
Caveat: this is my experience with a {{T43}} after [[Pentium M undervolting and underclocking|undervolting]] the CPU and activating [[How to make use of Graphics Chips Power Management features|maximal GPU powersaving using fglrx]]. It could be that for other people, other components are the first to trigger. But either way, those are 3 temperature sensors we didn't know of and they're used by the Embedded Controller's algorithm.<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 16:20, 20 Nov 2005 (CET)<br />
----<br />
<br />
== Observations about the Secret Sensors ==<br />
<br />
At the moment I am experimenting with controlling the fan on Windows XP with a self written tool on a {{T43}} (Model 2668 97G). Having found the information about the secret sensors here I built these into the program and it seems that after starting my cooled (placed outside) {{T43}} the 0xC1 sensor indeed rises fastest but also cools down quite quicky (down from 43°C to 37°C after just 4 minutes hibbernation, so I assume it's not tied to a large mass). The values at 0xC0 and 0xC2 also seem to show temperature values here, while 0xC4 is always at 128.<br />
<br />
First experiments indicate that as long as all the temperature value are below 43°C the Thinkpad comes up with no fan and stays that way. (The fan control register at EC offset 0x2F set to 0x80, see the bottom of the [[patch for controlling fan speed]] page for a description of this register). If 43°C are reached on the 0xC1 sensor, the fan kicks in with low speed while 43°C on the CPU do not activate the fan. Once the fan is on, it never goes off again.<br />
<br />
On [http://forum.thinkpads.com/ forums.thinkpad.com] is a ([http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=14580http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=14580 discussion]) from users who experimented with physically cooling the North- and Southbridge without success. In a different thread there a user claimed that he worked with a couple of Thinkpads and silenced them by turning off unused devices, WLAN being among them.<br />
<br />
So it would be interesting to see what other users observe in regard to fan activity, the value on 0xC1 and WLAN access.<br />
<br />
-- Shimdoax - 2005-11-27</div>212.34.172.148https://www.thinkwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Problem_with_fan_noise&diff=12575Talk:Problem with fan noise2005-11-27T14:21:19Z<p>212.34.172.148: Observations about the Secret Sensors</p>
<hr />
<div>== Problem with fan noise on R51 1829 L7G (ATI M9) ==<br />
<br />
On my R51 the fan is behaving like this:<br />
<br />
* > 45C -> fan on;<br />
* < 38C -> fan off.<br />
<br />
By using cpufreq + laptop_mode + Xorg DynamicClocks + WiFi power management, I get the fan stopped time to time, but only for 3 minutes time (transition from 38 C -> 45 C). The cooling down cycle is taking 20 minutes in the best case.<br />
<br />
I knew about the 'ibm_acpi experimental=1' trick, but in my opinion this is not very useful since nobody can guarantee that a temperature greater then 45 C will not damage the laptop and in the same time the transition time is very short (the laptop gets hot fast without fan).<br />
<br />
== Thinkpad T42 Radeon Mobility M7 ==<br />
<br />
When Xorg is running, the fan is always on and pretty loud !<br />
Setting DynamicClocks does not help<br />
<br />
it's clear that the GPU is the problem on the thinkpad :<br />
<br />
after 10minutes with the fan off<br />
temperatures: 44 47 33 52 32 -128 24 -128<br />
<br />
1: CPU<br />
2: Mini PCI Module<br />
3: HDD<br />
4: GPU<br />
5: Battery<br />
6: N/A<br />
7: Battery<br />
8: N/A<br />
<br />
Controlling the fan speed would be really cool !<br />
<br />
What is the maximum temperature not to cross ?<br />
----<br />
Word on the 'net is that 85 degrees is the max operating temp for most of the Intel chips. I've seen some high 70's all the time (just put it on carpet for awhile and play some quake3 :). I wouldn't let your processor get much higher than 85...<br />
<br />
----<br />
Older versions of xorg (i.e. 6.7.0) don't seem to be able to use the DynamicClocks option although it's set in the xorg.conf. Search the log to find out if it's really used.<br />
<br />
== Thinkpad R32 with Radeon Mobility M6 ==<br />
<br />
Updating xorg-x11 from 6.7.0 to 6.8.2 and using Speedstep (with the ondemand module in this case) helped cooling the system down significantly:<br />
<br />
* before updating the CPU was ~62 C in idle state, and got very near the critical temperature (72 C) during heavy load - I even got some freezes because of the heat ;)<br />
* after the update the CPU is ~54 C in idle state, and still gets to about 68 C while under heavy load<br />
<br />
The second sensor (which may be the GPU) is somehow fixed to 50 C (maybe a bug?)<br />
<br />
The fan on the R32 is behaving like this:<br />
<br />
* > 61 -> fan in state 2 (quite noisy)<br />
* < 55 -> fan in state 1 (less noisy :) )<br />
<br />
But I remember using my old SuSE distribution with kernel 2.4.16, apm and some old x11 version the fan actually stopped completely from time to time.<br />
<br />
Concerning the maximum temperature of the CPU, I found that the critical temperature on the R32 for the CPU sensor is 72 C<br />
(using {{cmdroot|cat /proc/acpi/thermal_zone/THM0/trip_points }} )<br />
<br />
== Fan Control script: more save version ==<br />
<br />
ibm_acpi works well on my R50 and R51. But to rely on it completely, I modified the script in two ways:<br />
<br />
1. It catches verious signals and turns the fan on before it quits<br />
<br />
2. It turns off the fan under very strict conditions, leaving it on when unexpected errors occur.<br />
<br />
Here is my script:<br />
<br />
#!/bin/sh<br />
<br />
# july 2005 Erik Groeneveld, erik@cq2.nl<br />
# More conservatiev and saver version<br />
# It make sure the fan is on in case of errors<br />
# and only turns it off when all temps are ok.<br />
<br />
IBM_ACPI=/proc/acpi/ibm<br />
THERMOMETER=$IBM_ACPI/thermal<br />
FAN=$IBM_ACPI/fan<br />
MAXTRIPPOINT=65<br />
MINTRIPPOINT=60<br />
TRIPPOINT=$MINTRIPPOINT<br />
<br />
echo fancontrol: Thermometer: $THERMOMETER, Fan: $FAN<br />
echo fancontrol: Current `cat $THERMOMETER`<br />
echo fancontrol: Controlling temperatures between $MINTRIPPOINT and $MAXTRIPPOINT degrees.<br />
<br />
# Make sure the fan is turned on when the script crashes or is killed<br />
trap "echo enable > $FAN; exit 0" HUP KILL INT ABRT STOP QUIT SEGV TERM<br />
<br />
while [ 1 ];<br />
do<br />
command=enable<br />
temperatures=`sed s/temperatures:// < $THERMOMETER`<br />
result=<br />
for temp in $temperatures<br />
do<br />
test $temp -le $TRIPPOINT && result=$result.Ok<br />
done<br />
if [ "$result" = ".Ok.Ok.Ok.Ok.Ok.Ok.Ok.Ok" ]; then<br />
command=disable<br />
TRIPPOINT=$MAXTRIPPOINT<br />
else<br />
command=enable<br />
TRIPPOINT=$MINTRIPPOINT<br />
fi<br />
echo $command > $FAN<br />
# Temperature ramps up quickly, so pick this not too large:<br />
sleep 5<br />
done<br />
<br />
----<br />
I added this script to the other ones. Don't wander about my talk edits, i didn't realize i was on the talk page. [[User:Wyrfel|Wyrfel]] 01:48, 13 Aug 2005 (CEST)<br />
----<br />
<br />
== X41 ==<br />
<br />
Same fan problem here on the X41. Once it starts it won't stop (unless it is _very_ cold outside). Undervolting the CPU doesn't help - still the same problem.<br />
<br />
== Fan speed control? ==<br />
<br />
Only the X31 and X40 have an ACPI method for controlling the FAN speed (this is why ibm_acpi provides this functionality just for these models).<br />
<br />
What will happen if we take the "FANS" method from the [http://acpi.sourceforge.net/dsdt/view.php?id=219 X40 DSDT], paste it into a iasl-disassembled DSDT of (say) a T43, recompile it and [http://gaugusch.at/kernel.shtml tell the kernel] to use the patched DSDT? ibm_acpi will present the functionality, but it may or may not work.<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 16:16, 28 Sep 2005 (CEST)<br />
<br />
Any risk of damaging the hardware when doing this? E.g. what does occur if the system overheats - will the CPU be destroyed are does it automatically switch of? As I've just bought a new X41 I don't want to take any stupid risks - but otherwise I'd say let's try it out.<br />
<br />
--gst Thu Sep 29 18:14:13 CEST 2005<br />
<br />
I think Intel CPUs have some built-in thermal protection, but I'd hate to test it. And of course, any fiddling with the hardware at this level might damage it. That said, when the CPU is mostly idle it keeps a reasonable temperature even when the fan is disabled, so as long as you keep an eye on both the CPU usage meter and /proc/acpi/ibm/thermal, things should be pretty safe temperature-wise. For extra safety you can force the CPU to its lowest speed via {{path|/sys/devices/system/cpu/cpu0/cpufreq/scaling_max_freq}}.<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 18:33, 29 Sep 2005 (CEST)<br />
<br />
== Further discussion ==<br />
<br />
I've just found a very interesting thread regarding the same issue on HP notebooks. IMO it provides many insight information about heat/fan problems in general, the URL is: http://forums1.itrc.hp.com/service/forums/questionanswer.do?threadId=853249<br />
Especially the posts by the HP engineer "Andy Fisher" are very interesting. IBM should be able to provide the same BIOS fix as HP did (maybe I should have bought an HP notebook instead of a Thinkpad?).<br />
<br />
I've also contacted IBM/Lenovo support via the website about the fan issue. Maybe it helps when others do this as well (especially people who bought larger quantities) so that this issue is taken serious by Lenovo. Is there already any official response to this problem?<br />
<br />
--gst Thu Sep 29 19:40:34 CEST 2005<br />
----<br />
<br />
Two of the changes mentioned by the HP engineer make perfect sense here: raise the low trip points and make speed transition gradual. Oh, and get rid of the annoying beat pattern (a brief speed pulse every few seconds) it sometimes gets into!<br />
<br />
But from our perspective, what would probably be best is to do the whole thing in software, providing the flexibility for personal preferences and smart decisions. The hardware would only enforce emergency override or throttle/shutdown for extreme temperatures. Then we could do cute things like having a software daemon lower the thresholds in a noisy environment (as judged using the built-in microphone) or when the laptop is on the user's lap (as judged by the built-in accelometers).<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 18:47, 30 Sep 2005 (CEST)<br />
<br />
I noticed that on my T43 the fan is usually in one of two modes, low speed (around 3300 RPM, triggered around CPU=47deg) and medium speed (around 4100 RPM, can't figure out the trip condition). The former is nearly inaudible, but the latter is quite noticable in the absense of strong background noises.<br />
<br />
Now, the problem is that once it has tripped into medium speed, it usually never comes back to low speed until the next reboot. So once it happens, to quiet things down I can only run one of the fan-disabling scripts given here. But with a disabled fan the T43 is not thermally stable, so it will spend its time moving back and forth between the hysteresis thresholds, i.e., toggling between 4100 RPM and 0 RPM every few minutes. This is quite silly and annoying, when staying at low speed would be both more stable and more quiet.<br />
<br />
I hope someone will find a way to control the fan speed, or at least to reset the embedded controller's hysteresis state.<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 10:29, 6 Oct 2005 (CEST)<br />
<br />
When you do changes to e.g. the Energy Schema in Windows or you eject the Thinkpad of the Docking Station it seems that the controllers state is rest. At least on the X41 the fan does stop until it reaches the threshold to start some minutes later. So it should be doable. --85.124.171.70<br />
<br />
That's good. But just like a bunch of other functions (e.g., controlling the battery charge threshold), it probably uses low-level undocumented proprietary interfaces which are very hard to figure out without the help of IBM/Lenovo, who are in denial about the whole thing. --[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 01:40, 16 Oct 2005 (CEST)<br />
<br />
----<br />
<br />
== Works fine with APM instead of ACPI? ==<br />
<br />
On my X41 the fan starts after about 10 minutes of use and doesn't stop (until it is rather cold in my room - and even then it runs most of the time ;) A friend of mine who has a X41 too (though another model) and who does use NetBSD and APM doesn't experience this problem. He claims that the fan only comes up if the system is not idle. So either it is colder in his room, the X41 model which he has doesn't have this flaw or APM does use different tresholds than ACPI.<br />
<br />
* Then why not just try the {{bootparm|acpi|off}} kernel parameter and see what happens? --[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 18:14, 30 Sep 2005 (CEST)<br />
<br />
I currently don't have physical access to the X41. Will try in a few days.<br />
<br />
== Rewiring the fan? ==<br />
<br />
Since IBM/Lenovo shows no intention of fixing their embedded controller firmware or releasing its specs, how about getting the embedded controller out of the loop? I'd be happy as a clam if my fan was hard-wired to work at a constant 3000RPM, with temperatures kept at bay in software through CPU frequenty control.<br />
<br />
Assuming the fan has the standard 3-wire connector, we can probaby keep the sensor and ground wires untouched, and rewire the positive wire to some nearby current source of appropriate voltage (through a resistor, for fine-tuning). The trick would be to find an easily tappable source that can handle an extra 2W and has the appropriate voltage (i.e., just slightly higher than what the fan needs to rotate at that RPM, so we don't waste too much energy in the resistor). Any idea what are the typical fan voltages and what would be an appropriate hookup point?<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 01:59, 16 Oct 2005 (CEST)<br />
----<br />
<br />
== Secret sensor and the cause of fan always on ==<br />
<br />
On my {{T43}}, ecdump offsets 0xC0-0xC2 seem to include 3 more temperature sensors that are not seen in {{path|/proc/acpi/ibm/thermal}}:<br />
# cat /proc/acpi/ibm/thermal; <br />
temperatures: 44 41 33 42 33 -128 30 -128<br />
# perl -ne 'm/^EC 0xc0: .(..) .(..) .(..) / or next; print hex($1)." ".hex($2)." ".hex($3)."\n"' < /proc/acpi/ibm/ecdump<br />
40 48 43<br />
<br />
Note the "48" entry (EC offset 0xC1). Something's pretty hot even at full full speed (level 7, 4700RPM). This sensor increases very quickly when the system starts (in fact, faster than anything else when the CPU is undervolted and [[fglrx]] is in maximum powersaving).<br />
<br />
Now, note this: the fan kicks up from low speed to medium speed whenever this sensor reaches 46 degrees, even if no other sensor changes; and this seems to usually be the first trigger encountered. Moreover, this sensor hovers around 47-48 degrees even on an idle machine. Taken together, '''this fully explains the "fan always on" behavior: a previously-unnoticed sensor that's always hot.'''<br />
<br />
Any idea what this sensor is? It seems correlated with WiFi: there's a 2deg difference when I toggle {{path|/sys/bus/pci/drivers/ipw2200/*/rf_kill}} (without ever being associated so this shouldn't affect anything else), and heavy WiFi data transfer increases temperature by several more degrees. This suggests the sensor is located in or close to the mini-PCI slot (i.e., under the touchpad). That region is indeed often hot to the touch. But why would the mini-PCI slot get so hot? Could it be the southbridge, which sits under the mini-PCI slot with no heatsink and poor ventilation? Can anyone correlate this sensor other specific activity, or with blocking of specific ventilation holes, or with cooling of specific components? If it's the mini-PCI slot? The operating temperature of the Intel 2200BG is [ftp://download.intel.com/network/connectivity/resources/doc_library/tech_brief/2200bg_prodbrief.pdf 0-80 deg].<br />
<br />
Caveat: this is my experience with a {{T43}} after [[Pentium M undervolting and underclocking|undervolting]] the CPU and activating [[How to make use of Graphics Chips Power Management features|maximal GPU powersaving using fglrx]]. It could be that for other people, other components are the first to trigger. But either way, those are 3 temperature sensors we didn't know of and they're used by the Embedded Controller's algorithm.<br />
<br />
--[[User:Thinker|Thinker]] 16:20, 20 Nov 2005 (CET)<br />
----<br />
<br />
== Observations about the Secret Sensors ==<br />
<br />
At the moment I am experimenting with controlling the fan on Windows XP with a self written tool on a {{T43}} (Model 2668 97G). Having found the information about the secret sensors here I built these into the program and it seems that after starting my cooled (placed outside) {{T43}} the 0xC1 sensor indeed rises fastest but also cools down quite quicky (down from 43°C to 37°C after just 4 minutes hibbernation, so I assume it's not tied to a large mass). The values at 0xC0 and 0xC2 also seem to show temperature values here, while 0xC4 is always at 128.<br />
<br />
First experiments indicate that as long as all the temperature value are below 43°C the Thinkpad comes up with no fan and stays that way. As soon as the 43°C was reached on any sensor, the fan kicks in with low speed and never goes off again (fan control register at EC offset 0x2F set to 0x80, see the bottom of the [[patch for controlling fan speed]] page for a description of this register).<br />
<br />
On [http://forum.thinkpads.com/ forums.thinkpad.com] is a ([http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=14580http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=14580 discussion]) from users who experimented with physically cooling the North- and Southbridge without success. In a different thread there a user claimed that he worked with a couple of Thinkpads and silenced them by turning off unused devices, WLAN being among them.<br />
<br />
So it would be interesting to see what other users observe in regard to fan activity, the value on 0xC1 and WLAN access.<br />
<br />
-- Shimdoax - 2005-11-27</div>212.34.172.148https://www.thinkwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Problem_with_fan_noise&diff=12577Problem with fan noise2005-11-27T13:54:40Z<p>212.34.172.148: /* Always on problem: */</p>
<hr />
<div>Information about the fan noise problem in Thinkpad models from 2003/2004/2005.<br />
<br />
==Problem description==<br />
<br />
There seem to be two different occurances of the problem (or two different <br />
<br />
===Acceleration (pulsing) problem:===<br />
The Thinkpad fan briefly accelerates in regular intervals every few seconds, causing an annoying periodic pulse noise.<br />
<br />
See [http://lophiomys.gmxhome.de/Thinkpad_R50_Periodic_Fan_Noise.html here] for audio recordings of this noise on ThinkPad {{R50}} and {{R51}}.<br />
<br />
===Always-on problem:===<br />
The Fan is always on, even though the processor is rather cool.<br />
<br />
==Affected Models==<br />
<br />
===Acceleration (pulsing) problem:===<br />
*ThinkPad {{600E}}<br />
*ThinkPad {{R40}}<br />
*ThinkPad {{T40}}, {{T40p}}, {{T41}}, {{T42}}(?), {{T43}}<br />
<br />
===Always-on problem:===<br />
*ThinkPad {{600X}}<br />
*ThinkPad {{770X}}<br />
*ThinkPad {{A31p}}<br />
*ThinkPad {{R32}}, {{R50}}, {{R50p}}, {{R51}}, {{R52}}<br />
*ThinkPad {{T40}}, {{T40p}}, {{T41}}, {{T41p}}, {{T42}}, {{T42p}}, {{T43}}, {{T43p}}<br />
*ThinkPad {{X32}}, {{X40}}, {{X41}}<br />
<br />
==Affected Operating Systems==<br />
<br />
===Acceleration (pulsing) problem:===<br />
*Linux, all flavours<br />
<br />
===Always-on problem:===<br />
*Linux, all flavours<br />
*FreeBSD 5.3<br />
*OpenBSD 3.7 (Tested with X40)<br />
*Windows XP<br />
*Windows 2000 pro<br />
<br />
==Status==<br />
<br />
===Acceleration (pulsing) problem:===<br />
The pulsing seems to be triggered by the embedded controller when it monitors the fan speed and adjusts the fan control accordingly every few seconds.<br />
<br />
For some models, IBM released an update to the embedded controller program that seems to at least partially solve this problem:<br />
<br />
Version 3.03 - 1RHT70WW<br />
NOTE: This version of Embedded Controller Program will only work with BIOS Version 3.06f (or higher).<br />
* (Fix) Reduced Fan noise in some models.<br />
<br />
The update can be found here: http://www-306.ibm.com/pc/support/site.wss/document.do?lndocid=MIGR-50279<br />
<br />
For other models (e.g., ThinkPad {{T43}}), there is a software workaround (see below).<br />
<br />
===Always-on problem:===<br />
The problem is yet unsolved. But see the partial fix below.<br />
<br />
IBM made a statement regarding this on their homepage:<br />
http://www-307.ibm.com/pc/support/site.wss/MIGR-56504.html<br />
<br />
<br />
==Solutions==<br />
<br />
===Acceleration problem:===<br />
<br />
====Replacing the fan====<br />
Some people reported that they replaced the original fan against one of a similar notebook without the problem has worked for them, i.e. changing a {{T41}}s fan against one from a {{T41p}}.<br />
<br />
====BIOS upgrade====<br />
For relevant models, you can try upgrading your embedded controller program to version 3.03 or newer.<br />
<br />
The update can be found here: http://www-306.ibm.com/pc/support/site.wss/document.do?lndocid=MIGR-50279<br />
<br />
====Software workaround====<br />
The problem can be solved through appropriate modulation of the embedded controller, using an [[ACPI fan control script#Variable speed control scripts|ACPI fan control script]].<br />
<br />
===Always on problem:===<br />
<br />
Generally, this problem is triggered by heating due to high power consumption. See [[How to reduce power consumption]].<br />
<br />
<br />
It seems like for some people a combination of enabling dynamic frequency scaling and using the most recent radeon drivers (from xorg 6.8.x) with the DynamicClocks option enabled helped lowing the fan rotation and hence making it more quiet.<br />
<br />
Also the fglrx driver from ATI is said to show the same effect when used together with dynamic frequency scaling.<br />
<br />
On a 770X the fan can be fully controlled through ACPI. Thermal Zone THM5 (possibly the battery/charging circuit, it's definitely warmer when using 5v PCMCIA cards and AC) triggers it to turn on and not ever off by design. Can be solved by a custom DSDT, which also makes use of the variable-speed features of the fan (will release this once I've finished tweaking and testing it).<br />
<br />
I can confirm that on my R51, the graphics card seems to be the problem. The fan keeps running most of the time even with AC on, but even though I activated DynamicClocks (with the radeon driver), I can see in /proc/acpi/ibm/thermal that the GPU (4th value) is at 52-53°. The fan stops running as soon as the temperature gets down to 50 degrees and starts again at 53. While debugging, I seemed(!) to be able to reduce the temperature together with the resolution (e.g. "xrandr -s 2" to get from 1400x1050 to 1024x768) or by switching off the graphics with "xset dpms force off". The bottom line is that the below "partial fix" won't work because the GPU temperature is the problem.<br />
<br />
The GPU also seems to be the culprit on the t43p. Even with the fan always on (with speeds of around 4K reported in /proc/acpi/ibm/fan), the temperature never drops below 55. This is with the Xorg driver and DynamicClocks=on. With the ATI's fglrx driver, the GPU temp seems slightly higher (although I haven't performed a careful comparison). Without the fan, the temperature very quickly climbs to above 60. <br />
<br />
With the Pentium M, CPU heat dissipation can be reduced through [[Pentium M undervolting and underclocking|undervolting and underclocking]].<br />
<br />
In addition to these in the discussion to this topic [http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/Talk:Problem_with_fan_noise] a user observed hidden temperature sensors. In the ACPI DSDT dump a {{T43}} reports 8 temp values at offset 0x78 (some of which may be off and yield a constant value of 0x80), but there are at least four more values at offset 0xC0 which from observation seem to show temperatures as well. Also, on [[patch for controlling fan speed]] is a description of the embedded controller register which controls the fan behavior (T4X series).<br />
<br />
An extensive forum discussion of this problem for the ThinkPad {{T43}}/{{T43p}}, and possible hardware mods for thermal enhancement, appear [http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=14580http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=14580 here]. There users who had opened the machine reported uncooled Northbridge and Southbrige chips, having no physical connectino to the heat pipe. Building a hardware copper bridge to these did change the temperature characteristics but did not cure the "always on" problem. In an other discussion on that forum a user said that amongh other areas the WLAN chip may be responsible for generating extra heat and that disabling WLAN (among other unused devices) may help. <br />
<br />
====Partial fix====<br />
{{WARN|This circumvents the BIOS fan control, so be careful and use at your own risk! Don't toast your ThinkPad.}}<br />
<br />
When loading [[ibm-acpi]] v0.11 with experimental switch ({{cmdroot|1=modprobe ibm_acpi experimental=1}}), it is possible to read and write the status of fan:<br />
<br />
'''#cat /proc/acpi/ibm/fan'''<br />
status: enabled<br />
speed: 3580<br />
commands: enable, disable<br />
<br />
'''#echo disable > /proc/acpi/ibm/fan'''<br />
<br />
'''cat /proc/acpi/ibm/fan'''<br />
status: disabled<br />
speed: 0<br />
commands: enable, disable<br />
<br />
But the fan will then '''never''' wake up. So, we need a [[ACPI fan control script|small script]] witch is constantly checking the temperature and setting the fan on/off when needed.<br />
<br />
On my T41 (gentoo-sources-2.6.11.11 ) I noticed that after unloading the fan module the fan noise stopped. With the module loaded the fan was working even at very low cpu temperatures, without the module it's ok so far.<br />
<br />
====Improved partial fix====<br />
<br />
Some models allow for fine control of fan speed. An [[ACPI fan control script#Variable speed control scripts|ACPI fan control script]] can thus be used to override the firmware's fan algorithm with gentler version.<br />
<br />
Manual control can be done through the [[patch for controlling fan speed]], or even just with [[ibm-acpi]] (see instructions in the former):<br />
<br />
'''#cat /proc/acpi/ibm/fan'''<br />
status: enabled<br />
level: auto<br />
speed: 4219<br />
commands: enable, disable, level <level><br />
(<level> is 0-7, auto or disengaged)<br />
<br />
'''#echo level 2 > /proc/acpi/ibm/fan'''<br />
<br />
'''#cat /proc/acpi/ibm/fan'''<br />
status: enabled<br />
level: 2<br />
speed: 3142<br />
commands: enable, disable, level <level><br />
(<level> is 0-7, auto or disengaged)<br />
<br />
====Cleaning the fan====<br />
<br />
If your ThinkPad is old or has been exposed to dusty environment, it is possible that accumulated dirt on the fan and the heatsink cause abnormal behavior (though the problems have also been reported for brand new units). You can use a combination of a vacuum cleaner and an air dusting spray to clean things up from the outside. Bigger agglomerations of dust may require removing by tweezers through the openings in the fan grill. Getting to the fan itself from the inside is quite tricky and may require removing the LCD.<br />
<br />
After you clean things up, power on your ThinkPad. You should hear the fan start up for a bit when booting. If it does not, this means that the cleaning procedure has actually blocked the fan and your computer will overheat at some point (BIOS POST test does not appear to catch obstructed fans). Keep cleaning.</div>212.34.172.148https://www.thinkwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Problem_with_fan_noise&diff=12571Problem with fan noise2005-11-27T13:51:48Z<p>212.34.172.148: </p>
<hr />
<div>Information about the fan noise problem in Thinkpad models from 2003/2004/2005.<br />
<br />
==Problem description==<br />
<br />
There seem to be two different occurances of the problem (or two different <br />
<br />
===Acceleration (pulsing) problem:===<br />
The Thinkpad fan briefly accelerates in regular intervals every few seconds, causing an annoying periodic pulse noise.<br />
<br />
See [http://lophiomys.gmxhome.de/Thinkpad_R50_Periodic_Fan_Noise.html here] for audio recordings of this noise on ThinkPad {{R50}} and {{R51}}.<br />
<br />
===Always-on problem:===<br />
The Fan is always on, even though the processor is rather cool.<br />
<br />
==Affected Models==<br />
<br />
===Acceleration (pulsing) problem:===<br />
*ThinkPad {{600E}}<br />
*ThinkPad {{R40}}<br />
*ThinkPad {{T40}}, {{T40p}}, {{T41}}, {{T42}}(?), {{T43}}<br />
<br />
===Always-on problem:===<br />
*ThinkPad {{600X}}<br />
*ThinkPad {{770X}}<br />
*ThinkPad {{A31p}}<br />
*ThinkPad {{R32}}, {{R50}}, {{R50p}}, {{R51}}, {{R52}}<br />
*ThinkPad {{T40}}, {{T40p}}, {{T41}}, {{T41p}}, {{T42}}, {{T42p}}, {{T43}}, {{T43p}}<br />
*ThinkPad {{X32}}, {{X40}}, {{X41}}<br />
<br />
==Affected Operating Systems==<br />
<br />
===Acceleration (pulsing) problem:===<br />
*Linux, all flavours<br />
<br />
===Always-on problem:===<br />
*Linux, all flavours<br />
*FreeBSD 5.3<br />
*OpenBSD 3.7 (Tested with X40)<br />
*Windows XP<br />
*Windows 2000 pro<br />
<br />
==Status==<br />
<br />
===Acceleration (pulsing) problem:===<br />
The pulsing seems to be triggered by the embedded controller when it monitors the fan speed and adjusts the fan control accordingly every few seconds.<br />
<br />
For some models, IBM released an update to the embedded controller program that seems to at least partially solve this problem:<br />
<br />
Version 3.03 - 1RHT70WW<br />
NOTE: This version of Embedded Controller Program will only work with BIOS Version 3.06f (or higher).<br />
* (Fix) Reduced Fan noise in some models.<br />
<br />
The update can be found here: http://www-306.ibm.com/pc/support/site.wss/document.do?lndocid=MIGR-50279<br />
<br />
For other models (e.g., ThinkPad {{T43}}), there is a software workaround (see below).<br />
<br />
===Always-on problem:===<br />
The problem is yet unsolved. But see the partial fix below.<br />
<br />
IBM made a statement regarding this on their homepage:<br />
http://www-307.ibm.com/pc/support/site.wss/MIGR-56504.html<br />
<br />
<br />
==Solutions==<br />
<br />
===Acceleration problem:===<br />
<br />
====Replacing the fan====<br />
Some people reported that they replaced the original fan against one of a similar notebook without the problem has worked for them, i.e. changing a {{T41}}s fan against one from a {{T41p}}.<br />
<br />
====BIOS upgrade====<br />
For relevant models, you can try upgrading your embedded controller program to version 3.03 or newer.<br />
<br />
The update can be found here: http://www-306.ibm.com/pc/support/site.wss/document.do?lndocid=MIGR-50279<br />
<br />
====Software workaround====<br />
The problem can be solved through appropriate modulation of the embedded controller, using an [[ACPI fan control script#Variable speed control scripts|ACPI fan control script]].<br />
<br />
===Always on problem:===<br />
<br />
Generally, this problem is triggered by heating due to high power consumption. See [[How to reduce power consumption]].<br />
<br />
<br />
It seems like for some people a combination of enabling dynamic frequency scaling and using the most recent radeon drivers (from xorg 6.8.x) with the DynamicClocks option enabled helped lowing the fan rotation and hence making it more quiet.<br />
<br />
Also the fglrx driver from ATI is said to show the same effect when used together with dynamic frequency scaling.<br />
<br />
On a 770X the fan can be fully controlled through ACPI. Thermal Zone THM5 (possibly the battery/charging circuit, it's definitely warmer when using 5v PCMCIA cards and AC) triggers it to turn on and not ever off by design. Can be solved by a custom DSDT, which also makes use of the variable-speed features of the fan (will release this once I've finished tweaking and testing it).<br />
<br />
I can confirm that on my R51, the graphics card seems to be the problem. The fan keeps running most of the time even with AC on, but even though I activated DynamicClocks (with the radeon driver), I can see in /proc/acpi/ibm/thermal that the GPU (4th value) is at 52-53°. The fan stops running as soon as the temperature gets down to 50 degrees and starts again at 53. While debugging, I seemed(!) to be able to reduce the temperature together with the resolution (e.g. "xrandr -s 2" to get from 1400x1050 to 1024x768) or by switching off the graphics with "xset dpms force off". The bottom line is that the below "partial fix" won't work because the GPU temperature is the problem.<br />
<br />
The GPU also seems to be the culprit on the t43p. Even with the fan always on (with speeds of around 4K reported in /proc/acpi/ibm/fan), the temperature never drops below 55. This is with the Xorg driver and DynamicClocks=on. With the ATI's fglrx driver, the GPU temp seems slightly higher (although I haven't performed a careful comparison). Without the fan, the temperature very quickly climbs to above 60. <br />
<br />
With the Pentium M, CPU heat dissipation can be reduced through [[Pentium M undervolting and underclocking|undervolting and underclocking]].<br />
<br />
In addition th these in the discussion to this topic [http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/Talk:Problem_with_fan_noise] a user observed hidden temperature sensors. In the ACPI DSDT dump a {{T43}} reports 8 temp values at offset 0x78 (some of which may be off and yield a constant value of 0x80), but there are at least four more values at offset 0xC0 which from observation seem to show temperatures as well. Also, on [[patch for controlling fan speed]] is a description of the embedded controller register which controls the fan behavior (T4X series).<br />
<br />
An extensive forum discussion of this problem for the ThinkPad {{T43}}/{{T43p}}, and possible hardware mods for thermal enhancement, appear [http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=14580http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=14580 here]. There a user said that amongh others the WLAN chip may be responsible for generating extra heat and that disabling WLAN (among other unused devices) may help. In other discussions on this forum T42/T43 users who had opened the machine reported uncooled Northbridge and Southbrige chips, having no physical connectino to the heat pipe. Building a hardware copper bridge to these did change the temperature characteristics but did not cure the "always on" problem. <br />
<br />
====Partial fix====<br />
{{WARN|This circumvents the BIOS fan control, so be careful and use at your own risk! Don't toast your ThinkPad.}}<br />
<br />
When loading [[ibm-acpi]] v0.11 with experimental switch ({{cmdroot|1=modprobe ibm_acpi experimental=1}}), it is possible to read and write the status of fan:<br />
<br />
'''#cat /proc/acpi/ibm/fan'''<br />
status: enabled<br />
speed: 3580<br />
commands: enable, disable<br />
<br />
'''#echo disable > /proc/acpi/ibm/fan'''<br />
<br />
'''cat /proc/acpi/ibm/fan'''<br />
status: disabled<br />
speed: 0<br />
commands: enable, disable<br />
<br />
But the fan will then '''never''' wake up. So, we need a [[ACPI fan control script|small script]] witch is constantly checking the temperature and setting the fan on/off when needed.<br />
<br />
On my T41 (gentoo-sources-2.6.11.11 ) I noticed that after unloading the fan module the fan noise stopped. With the module loaded the fan was working even at very low cpu temperatures, without the module it's ok so far.<br />
<br />
====Improved partial fix====<br />
<br />
Some models allow for fine control of fan speed. An [[ACPI fan control script#Variable speed control scripts|ACPI fan control script]] can thus be used to override the firmware's fan algorithm with gentler version.<br />
<br />
Manual control can be done through the [[patch for controlling fan speed]], or even just with [[ibm-acpi]] (see instructions in the former):<br />
<br />
'''#cat /proc/acpi/ibm/fan'''<br />
status: enabled<br />
level: auto<br />
speed: 4219<br />
commands: enable, disable, level <level><br />
(<level> is 0-7, auto or disengaged)<br />
<br />
'''#echo level 2 > /proc/acpi/ibm/fan'''<br />
<br />
'''#cat /proc/acpi/ibm/fan'''<br />
status: enabled<br />
level: 2<br />
speed: 3142<br />
commands: enable, disable, level <level><br />
(<level> is 0-7, auto or disengaged)<br />
<br />
====Cleaning the fan====<br />
<br />
If your ThinkPad is old or has been exposed to dusty environment, it is possible that accumulated dirt on the fan and the heatsink cause abnormal behavior (though the problems have also been reported for brand new units). You can use a combination of a vacuum cleaner and an air dusting spray to clean things up from the outside. Bigger agglomerations of dust may require removing by tweezers through the openings in the fan grill. Getting to the fan itself from the inside is quite tricky and may require removing the LCD.<br />
<br />
After you clean things up, power on your ThinkPad. You should hear the fan start up for a bit when booting. If it does not, this means that the cleaning procedure has actually blocked the fan and your computer will overheat at some point (BIOS POST test does not appear to catch obstructed fans). Keep cleaning.</div>212.34.172.148https://www.thinkwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Problem_with_fan_noise&diff=12570Problem with fan noise2005-11-27T13:45:41Z<p>212.34.172.148: /* Always on problem: */</p>
<hr />
<div>Information about the fan noise problem in Thinkpad models from 2003/2004/2005.<br />
<br />
==Problem description==<br />
<br />
There seem to be two different occurances of the problem (or two different <br />
<br />
===Acceleration (pulsing) problem:===<br />
The Thinkpad fan briefly accelerates in regular intervals every few seconds, causing an annoying periodic pulse noise.<br />
<br />
See [http://lophiomys.gmxhome.de/Thinkpad_R50_Periodic_Fan_Noise.html here] for audio recordings of this noise on ThinkPad {{R50}} and {{R51}}.<br />
<br />
===Always-on problem:===<br />
The Fan is always on, even though the processor is rather cool.<br />
<br />
==Affected Models==<br />
<br />
===Acceleration (pulsing) problem:===<br />
*ThinkPad {{600E}}<br />
*ThinkPad {{R40}}<br />
*ThinkPad {{T40}}, {{T40p}}, {{T41}}, {{T42}}(?), {{T43}}<br />
<br />
===Always-on problem:===<br />
*ThinkPad {{600X}}<br />
*ThinkPad {{770X}}<br />
*ThinkPad {{A31p}}<br />
*ThinkPad {{R32}}, {{R50}}, {{R50p}}, {{R51}}, {{R52}}<br />
*ThinkPad {{T40}}, {{T40p}}, {{T41}}, {{T41p}}, {{T42}}, {{T42p}}, {{T43}}, {{T43p}}<br />
*ThinkPad {{X32}}, {{X40}}, {{X41}}<br />
<br />
==Affected Operating Systems==<br />
<br />
===Acceleration (pulsing) problem:===<br />
*Linux, all flavours<br />
<br />
===Always-on problem:===<br />
*Linux, all flavours<br />
*FreeBSD 5.3<br />
*OpenBSD 3.7 (Tested with X40)<br />
*Windows XP<br />
*Windows 2000 pro<br />
<br />
==Status==<br />
<br />
===Acceleration (pulsing) problem:===<br />
The pulsing seems to be triggered by the embedded controller when it monitors the fan speed and adjusts the fan control accordingly every few seconds.<br />
<br />
For some models, IBM released an update to the embedded controller program that seems to at least partially solve this problem:<br />
<br />
Version 3.03 - 1RHT70WW<br />
NOTE: This version of Embedded Controller Program will only work with BIOS Version 3.06f (or higher).<br />
* (Fix) Reduced Fan noise in some models.<br />
<br />
The update can be found here: http://www-306.ibm.com/pc/support/site.wss/document.do?lndocid=MIGR-50279<br />
<br />
For other models (e.g., ThinkPad {{T43}}), there is a software workaround (see below).<br />
<br />
===Always-on problem:===<br />
The problem is yet unsolved. But see the partial fix below.<br />
<br />
IBM made a statement regarding this on their homepage:<br />
http://www-307.ibm.com/pc/support/site.wss/MIGR-56504.html<br />
<br />
<br />
==Solutions==<br />
<br />
===Acceleration problem:===<br />
<br />
====Replacing the fan====<br />
Some people reported that they replaced the original fan against one of a similar notebook without the problem has worked for them, i.e. changing a {{T41}}s fan against one from a {{T41p}}.<br />
<br />
====BIOS upgrade====<br />
For relevant models, you can try upgrading your embedded controller program to version 3.03 or newer.<br />
<br />
The update can be found here: http://www-306.ibm.com/pc/support/site.wss/document.do?lndocid=MIGR-50279<br />
<br />
====Software workaround====<br />
The problem can be solved through appropriate modulation of the embedded controller, using an [[ACPI fan control script#Variable speed control scripts|ACPI fan control script]].<br />
<br />
===Always on problem:===<br />
<br />
Generally, this problem is triggered by heating due to high power consumption. See [[How to reduce power consumption]].<br />
<br />
<br />
It seems like for some people a combination of enabling dynamic frequency scaling and using the most recent radeon drivers (from xorg 6.8.x) with the DynamicClocks option enabled helped lowing the fan rotation and hence making it more quiet.<br />
<br />
Also the fglrx driver from ATI is said to show the same effect when used together with dynamic frequency scaling.<br />
<br />
On a 770X the fan can be fully controlled through ACPI. Thermal Zone THM5 (possibly the battery/charging circuit, it's definitely warmer when using 5v PCMCIA cards and AC) triggers it to turn on and not ever off by design. Can be solved by a custom DSDT, which also makes use of the variable-speed features of the fan (will release this once I've finished tweaking and testing it).<br />
<br />
I can confirm that on my R51, the graphics card seems to be the problem. The fan keeps running most of the time even with AC on, but even though I activated DynamicClocks (with the radeon driver), I can see in /proc/acpi/ibm/thermal that the GPU (4th value) is at 52-53°. The fan stops running as soon as the temperature gets down to 50 degrees and starts again at 53. While debugging, I seemed(!) to be able to reduce the temperature together with the resolution (e.g. "xrandr -s 2" to get from 1400x1050 to 1024x768) or by switching off the graphics with "xset dpms force off". The bottom line is that the below "partial fix" won't work because the GPU temperature is the problem.<br />
<br />
The GPU also seems to be the culprit on the t43p. Even with the fan always on (with speeds of around 4K reported in /proc/acpi/ibm/fan), the temperature never drops below 55. This is with the Xorg driver and DynamicClocks=on. With the ATI's fglrx driver, the GPU temp seems slightly higher (although I haven't performed a careful comparison). Without the fan, the temperature very quickly climbs to above 60. <br />
<br />
With the Pentium M, CPU heat dissipation can be reduced through [[Pentium M undervolting and underclocking|undervolting and underclocking]].<br />
<br />
In addition th these in the discussion to this topic [http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/Talk:Problem_with_fan_noise] a user observed hidden temperature sensors. In the ACPI DSDT dump a T43 reports 8 temp values at offset 0x78 (some of which may be off and yield a constant value of 0x80), but there are at least four more values at offset 0xC0 which from observation seem to show temperatures as well. <br />
<br />
An extensive forum discussion of this problem for the ThinkPad {{T43}}/{{T43p}}, and possible hardware mods for thermal enhancement, appear [http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=14580http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=14580 here]. There a user said that amongh others the WLAN chip may be responsible for generating extra heat and that disabling WLAN (among other unused devices) may help. In other discussions on this forum T42/T43 users who had opened the machine reported uncooled Northbridge and Southbrige chips, having no physical connectino to the heat pipe. Building a hardware copper bridge to these did change the temperature characteristics but did not cure the "always on" problem. <br />
<br />
====Partial fix====<br />
{{WARN|This circumvents the BIOS fan control, so be careful and use at your own risk! Don't toast your ThinkPad.}}<br />
<br />
When loading [[ibm-acpi]] v0.11 with experimental switch ({{cmdroot|1=modprobe ibm_acpi experimental=1}}), it is possible to read and write the status of fan:<br />
<br />
'''#cat /proc/acpi/ibm/fan'''<br />
status: enabled<br />
speed: 3580<br />
commands: enable, disable<br />
<br />
'''#echo disable > /proc/acpi/ibm/fan'''<br />
<br />
'''cat /proc/acpi/ibm/fan'''<br />
status: disabled<br />
speed: 0<br />
commands: enable, disable<br />
<br />
But the fan will then '''never''' wake up. So, we need a [[ACPI fan control script|small script]] witch is constantly checking the temperature and setting the fan on/off when needed.<br />
<br />
On my T41 (gentoo-sources-2.6.11.11 ) I noticed that after unloading the fan module the fan noise stopped. With the module loaded the fan was working even at very low cpu temperatures, without the module it's ok so far.<br />
<br />
====Improved partial fix====<br />
<br />
Some models allow for fine control of fan speed. An [[ACPI fan control script#Variable speed control scripts|ACPI fan control script]] can thus be used to override the firmware's fan algorithm with gentler version.<br />
<br />
Manual control can be done through the [[patch for controlling fan speed]], or even just with [[ibm-acpi]] (see instructions in the former):<br />
<br />
'''#cat /proc/acpi/ibm/fan'''<br />
status: enabled<br />
level: auto<br />
speed: 4219<br />
commands: enable, disable, level <level><br />
(<level> is 0-7, auto or disengaged)<br />
<br />
'''#echo level 2 > /proc/acpi/ibm/fan'''<br />
<br />
'''#cat /proc/acpi/ibm/fan'''<br />
status: enabled<br />
level: 2<br />
speed: 3142<br />
commands: enable, disable, level <level><br />
(<level> is 0-7, auto or disengaged)<br />
<br />
====Cleaning the fan====<br />
<br />
If your ThinkPad is old or has been exposed to dusty environment, it is possible that accumulated dirt on the fan and the heatsink cause abnormal behavior (though the problems have also been reported for brand new units). You can use a combination of a vacuum cleaner and an air dusting spray to clean things up from the outside. Bigger agglomerations of dust may require removing by tweezers through the openings in the fan grill. Getting to the fan itself from the inside is quite tricky and may require removing the LCD.<br />
<br />
After you clean things up, power on your ThinkPad. You should hear the fan start up for a bit when booting. If it does not, this means that the cleaning procedure has actually blocked the fan and your computer will overheat at some point (BIOS POST test does not appear to catch obstructed fans). Keep cleaning.</div>212.34.172.148